Suspicious!Remus

[sistermagpie]

I've been trying to think of something to post for a few days, and every time I start something it ceases to amuse and I delete it. Which is why I'm late with HAPPY BIRTHDAY conniemarie and nmalfoy I notice. Hope you guys both had great days!

One thing that did come up in a sub-thread of the PS/SS re-read was Remus,

I tend to see things a lot about how Remus was desperate to keep his friends, implying he was a pushover etc. I know JKR has said his greatest weakness is he wants to be liked, but I don't think that always translates into what people think of when they hear that term. One way to interpret that sentence is that Remus was the kind of kid who did stuff because he wanted friends. The kind of kid who had a lot of people coming to the party he threw while his parents were away not because he was popular but because he supplied a lot of alcohol and offered his house for people to party in. This is not the way I imagine this phrase applying to Remus. I think it applies to Remus in a subtler way that puts Remus a little more in control.

If you look at how MWPP seemed to interact it seems Remus was a little different from James and Sirius. He wasn’t the same kind of aggressive bully—nor did he fret over bullying while being too scared to say anything, imo. Dumbledore puts him in a position where he's supposed to stop them from what they're doing and he rejects that position--frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if he never wanted to be prefect, period.

But James and Sirius don't seem to treat Remus as a second-class friend. It’s Peter who’s teased as the junior member who looks up to J&S. If Remus was really desperate for friends he'd have a more vulnerable feeling to him, but he doesn't seem to have that to me. To me it seems like they were friends with Remus because they thought he was cool in a different way than they were. Quiet, but not timid. I don't think they sought him out because they felt sorry for him; I imagine they noticed him being funny or doing stuff they approved of in class. The brief interactions we see between Remus and the other members of MWPP seem to fit that more than the idea of Doormat!Remus to me.

The other thing besides the Pensieve incident that often gets interpreted as Remus getting walked over is the Prank. Had he killed or infected Snape that would have been terrible for Remus. So he must have been just so desperate for friendship he'd put aside his anger and hurt. The thing is, we don't know whether Remus views it this way--remember, this is a man who even as an adult forgets to take his Wolfsbane, and he doesn't seem horrified at the risk MWPP put people in when they went running around with him. Iirc, even when he's saying he was wrong to do this he doesn't say anything about endangering others, nor does he speak for the other Marauders by saying they were ALL wrong in doing what they did. He just speaks for himself. I believe he tells Harry he should have listened to Dumbledore since the restrictions were there "for his own good." (Sorry if I'm getting that wrong.) Fandom may take Remus' contagious situation more seriously than he does...and that sort of makes sense to me.

Remus makes the decision to not tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus in PoA. The reason he gives is, iirc, that he didn't want Dumbledore to know he'd abused his trust. Maybe that's supposed to be accurate but it doesn't fit to me. First because Remus just seems too grown-up to care about letting Dumbledore down that much as a kid. If Remus is driven to endear himself, why not share this information with Dumbledore while simply leaving himself out of the story? He wouldn't have to say when or why Sirius became an animagus--he could pretend he did it after Hogwarts. I doubt Dumbledore would have pressed him that much beyond that. To me it reads more like yes, he doesn't want to tell Dumbledore the truth, but he also just wants to keep his own secrets. Based on the Remus we see it's just easier for me to imagine him somehow wanting to protect Sirius' secret, even thinking he's a murderer, then it is to imagine him fretting over getting in trouble for Dumbledore for breaking the rules at 15. Especially since Dumbledore hardly has a history of caring about that, particularly when James was involved, and Remus doesn't seem ashamed of what he did anyway.

I should admit here, too, that I find the idea of tension between Remus and Harry interesting. It's not something I'm always very aware of, but I think it’s part of why I'm resistant to Perfect!Dad or Mommy!Remus who's the best adult in Harry's life and wuvs him so much and is the only person who puts Harry's best interest first. Yes, Remus seems to be the only adult who doesn't have an *agenda* when it comes to Harry, but that's slightly different than saying Harry's best interest is the thing around which Remus' life revolves. Harry loving Remus best of all the adults because of how good he was to him is, of course, un-canonical. It's Sirius Harry thinks of as family, and then the Weasleys. Hagrid and Dumbledore both come before Remus, as do Harry's friends. When Harry imagines Christmas with the Weasleys in OotP he's disappointed Sirius can't come along and worries about him spending Xmas alone with Kreacher--Remus doesn't even come into Harry's head.

In the PS re-read people were discussing the way characters made Harry=James a lot in the text, and someone pointed out that Remus is one of the few that doesn't. I wondered if part of the reason for that is that Remus' relationship with Harry in PoA, despite being one of the most positive and helpful ones Harry's ever has, is still marked by distance (which is a relief given all the adults who desperately NEED something from Harry or want to claim him in some way). Remus is keeping secrets during the year-that he's a werewolf, yes, but also the whole MWPP backstory. In protecting Sirius' secret for his own reasons Remus is working *against* Harry by helping his alleged would-be murderer stay hidden. I think there's a lot of good reasons for Remus, unlike Sirius or even Peter, to be all too aware that this *isn't* James he's dealing with, but a child he doesn't know very well, even if he's related to his old friends.

Here's the other thing about "desperate to be liked" Remus--as a character he's quite solitary. He handles social situations well--he's quite smooth, in fact, and is more often shown to be the person in control of a scene than the one reacting to outside force. He needles Snape, he tells Sirius to sit down, he calms Neville, he hands out chocolate, he teaches Harry. This is not a guy constantly on the lookout for ways to ingratiate himself. He's one of the more detached characters in terms of needing connections as well. Sirius seems to have far more feeling about wanting to be with Harry than Remus does. He reacts to losing his job far more calmly than Hagrid. Let's face it--the fact that Remus has to leave at all implies Dumbledore didn't step in to help, possibly because Remus clearly isn't loyal enough to make the effort for. He doesn't seem devastated at losing Sirius. He appears to spend long chunks of time by himself, and he doesn't seem like somebody who fears time spent alone. I think Remus would have done far better stuck in a house than Sirius did.

I mean, think of the phrase, "He wants people to like him." Like is a pretty casual word. He doesn't want to be loved--that's somebody else. He just wants people to like him, to not dislike him. There's something more potentially sinister in wanting people to like you, perhaps because it lacks the implied need of wanting love. (Not that wanting to be loved can't actually produce a far scarier person.) This ultimately seems to be the skill that Remus has, too. He doesn't make himself loved the way Sirius (James and Harry's favorite) does, he makes himself *liked.* Everybody's happy to see him, but there's no gaping hole when he's not there. His leaving school is a shame, but it’s not like Hagrid got fired. After a year of regular contact with Remus and a couple of brief meetings with Sirius, which one does Harry consider family and which one is greeted with a pleasant, "Professor Lupin, is that you?" after no contact for over a year?

Any ideas about Remus have to include the fact that when his friends knew there was a traitor, they thought of him--ironically, James trusts Sirius as Secret Keeper and Sirius trusts Peter, despite the fact that Remus is probably the one most used to keeping secrets--or perhaps BECAUSE he's the one most used to keeping secrets. I don't think people mistrusted Remus because he'd shown signs of anything really evil, so much that he stood a little apart, and so was never entirely trustworthy.

That's, I guess, where the whole loyalty issue comes in. He will keep secrets from Dumbledore--but somehow not in the same way Sirius, James or Harry do. I think that's why I don't buy Grown!Adult!Remus being too ashamed to tell Dumbledore he'd abused his trust in school, since it's very hard for me to imagine Remus hanging too much on anyone's opinion of him. If Dumbledore's opinion really meant that much to Remus I suspect he would have become one of Dumbledore's protected group instead of a Field Agent on his own. Dumbledore loves forgiving stuff like that.

All this makes sense given Remus' condition, imo. What's the main thing Remus can't be trusted to do but be 100% responsible about his illness? We're told about werewolf prejudice a lot, so that makes him an outsider. It's also a painful disease that probably governs his whole life. Even his family might have shied away from him. It's him and the wolf and everybody else is outside. At the same time--and I really like this about Remus--he really doesn't seem to have the relationship to his condition some fans assume he would. He has a history of carelessness with it! Here he gets a chance to come to school and be "normal," and he's running off with his friends in wolf form. Are we supposed to think the other boys forced him into it, that Remus pathetically offered his "freakish" nature as something for them to gawk at and play around with? That's hard to believe. Personally, I think he just loved doing it. Many people are shocked at Remus' forgetting to take his Potion in PoA--it's so important, after all, and he's so mature and responsible at other times, how could he forget? But why not instead assume it’s not just forgetfulness at work? Perhaps it's significant that when Snape brings his Potion and wants him to take it RIGHT NOW Remus tells him to put it down and he'll take it later.

Now, I really dislike it when people make Remus' lycanthropy an analogy for some real life condition (especially homosexuality or AIDS) but there are obviously some general parallels to some real life situations. And I just sort of like the idea that Remus is not entirely compliant when it comes to his meds, as real people sometimes aren't. Rather than Remus being ultra-responsible about his illness and horrified at the idea of infecting someone, perhaps he doesn't identify himself as a big danger, and isn't horrified at what he could do to non-werewolves. Perhaps he even harbors even darker impulses about them.

Not that I'm saying he secretly wants to infect everyone--Remus is reasonable and unlike Snape, Harry and Sirius he isn't a hot head--all the more interesting since he's the one who really does periodically lose control and become violent if not medicated. But still, you can't ignore this is a character who is more in control than most, in a precarious position, with an important responsibility, and when he blows it it's just because...he forgot. It’s not like the author couldn’t have made an effort to come up with some other reason Remus hadn’t taken his Potion instead of “he forgot.”

Did he forget after refusing once again to take the Potion the minute Snape brought it? I have a friend who's bipolar who once told me she hated the taste of her pills, and realized it was because she just literally hated having to take her pills on many levels. I love the idea of Remus having a similarly complicated relationship with his Wolfsbane. Plus it's also just nice to think of a "half-breed" who's slightly ambivalent about being a normal wizard by any means necessary.

This doesn't add up to Remus really "being evil" or whatever. It just seems like yeah, if you were going to suspect one of the Marauders, Remus has the kind of personality that would make you wonder if you could completely trust him--probably because, to put it simply, I don't think he trusts anyone else completely. He can't, really. He's got to look after himself.

It would be interesting to know a bit about how Remus interacted with his wolf-self, in fact. Are there good points to being a wolf--apart from the physical drain on your human self? Is it unpleasant being a Wolfsbane!Werewolf? I guess it's just always seemed to me that the thing about any condition that effects your personality is it's difficult to just draw a line and say "This is me" and "This is the illness." Of course there are some ways you can do that and should, just as Remus=!Wolf-Remus. But still it seems like any chronic, serious condition like that is always part of who you are, and while the WPP therefore probably got closer to Remus than anyone else by becoming animagi they still may have always been aware of there was a part of this friend they couldn't ever know.

Comments

[cs-luis.livejournal.com]

Wonderful analysis - you have such a good understanding of this character. :-) My impression of Remus is that he's such a nice guy... when it's convenient for him. He's one of my the most fascinating characters in canon for all these reasons. Thanks!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Yes--I love that about him. He's such a nice guy...when it's convenient. Anybody who thinks he's a pushover would be in for a surprise, I feel.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Brilliant! You've just made Remus a more interesting character to me. Thanks!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Excellent! I love making characters more interesting!!

[nmalfoy.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks for the birthday wishes!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You're welcome--hope you had a great day! And break a leg.:-)

Thank you for posting all that!

[dazzleberry.livejournal.com]

I'm constantly on the look-out for detailed and thought-provoking character analyses, and this was certainly one of them. I've seen many discussions about Snape and Dumbledore and Harry and Ginny... but oddly, I've never seen one about Lupin. Probably because I don't know where to look.

I was especially interested in your comments about Remus not being part of Dumbledore's Extremely Loyal and Faithful People list. Someone needs to be providing the balance there, and I rather like the idea of it being Lupin.

I think one of the things I latch onto with Lupin is that he probably didn't have many friends as a small child (after all, who would let their kids play with the werewolf?) and James and Sirius might have taken it in stride. Like if Lupin was in the infirmary for a couple of days after a transformation, they might have treated it no differently than if one of them had a cold or a broken arm-- kind of 'when are you going to get better so you can come play again' attitude.

I, too, was struck by the scene in PoA when Lupin is reunited with Sirius and Sirius asks his forgiveness for thinking him the traitor. Being falsely accused of something like that... I would think that would be a VERY difficult obstacle to overcome in a friendship. Without trust, what else is there? Perhaps that is why Lupin is more distant than the others-- he was excluded from the group of friends because they did not trust him. The friends he'd known and loved turned their backs on him, so perhaps for that very reason he's less likely to see James in place of Harry.

Yet, it's very obvious that he dearly loved his friends-- after the Pensieve scene, he has the nostalgic look on his face about James and the snitch, too. He certainly seems to be the common sense of the operation. Incidentally, I stumbled across an article the other day about archetypes in literature, and there's something about four males in it. To pare it down to the essentials:

"Late one evening in Austin, Texas, around 1976, a friend of mine said he had once heard the theory that small groups of men tend to shake down to four, where each corresponds to a specific function in a Bushman hunting party... The four roles in the Bushman hunting party were: (1) the leader, (2) the master hunter, (3) the shaman, and (4) the joker."

http://www.friesian.com/gender.htm (http://www.friesian.com/gender.htm)

I vacillate on how accurate I think that archetype is, but I could certainly put teenage Lupin in the Shaman role (the moral consciousness) of the group.

I've also bounced around the idea in my head that the reason Lupin seems more mature than the others is that he is actually *older*. We know he was in the same year as WPP etc, but do we know that he was their age? In PoA he tells Harry, Ron and Hermione that until Dumbledore became Headmaster, it didn't appear he'd be allowed to attend school. To me this almost suggests that summer he was eleven came and went and he didn't receive his letter. I wonder if perhaps he was a little older (like 12 or 13, not suggesting he was significantly older than the others) when Dumbledore became Headmaster and, having much more lenient admission policies than his predecessor, allowed Lupin to start school late. So that we'd have a 12- or 13-year-old first year. The pensieve scene set me to thinking about that, actually. Sitting under a tree and studying while the friends are playing is something I'd associate more with a slightly older boy. By 17 or certainly 18, I could see it much more easily than at the age of 15/16. I have no true basis for this, and it isn't even what I'd call a 'theory' per se, just something that crossed my mind.

Anyway, interesting observations. I'm glad I stumbled across this.

Re: Thank you for posting all that!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Especially for that great link--I'm going over to read it right now. I love stuff about archetypes.

One of my favorite fanfic Remuses is in mirabellawotr's "Shadow of his Wings" because of how well it deals with his nostalgia about the past and realism about the present. In that fic I remember the Remus says that Peter and James were fascinated by his transformation and almost went through a sympathetic one themselves, feeling the magic. Sirius was notably not as interested, coming from the family he did.

Given what we know about the other Marauders I can definitely see them easily working around his illnesses--not to mention thinking his being a werewolf was kind of cool.

[mary-re.livejournal.com]

This was a wonderful analysis. You've managed to put into words exactly how I feel about Remus as a character, and how I love writing him.
As a matter of fact, I am now literally itching to write a story where these points would be lurking for the observant reader to see...because that's how it'd have to be written. To make any of what you said plain would be to ruin the character, because he wouldn't be obvious at all with his actions...

One thing, though, and it has nothing really to do with your observations: what does iirc mean? I saw that term and was stymied, and the surrounding text didn't help me out with its meaning.

Hmmm...oh, also. Another thing about Remus is the mystery of where he was for the 13 years between when Voldemort fell and PoA...you don't learn anything in the books, and I've always wondered where he was, precisely. Wherever he was, though, I doubt that he bothered getting hold of Wolfsbane...isn't it supposed to be quite expensive? But then again, I don't really read Remus-centric fics...I'm sure that this question has been addressed hundreds of times. *g*

Once again, I'd like to say that this was a lovely and brilliantly thought-out essay. *bookmarks*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thank you!!

And I know just how annoying it is not being able to figure out abbreviations. IIRC=If I Recall Correctly.

Which I often don't.:-)

You do have to wonder about those 13 years--Snape and Trelawney are both at Hogwarts, yet Remus isn't. I wonder why, especially since he'd be a good DADA teacher. Did he not want to be there? Dumbledore got him into the school as a student, after all. It's interesting to think of him only having access to Wolfsbane when he's at Hogwarts.

[conniemarie.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the birthday greetings, Magpie. *hugs* And guess what I've started reading a little bit? HP fics. *snort* And Faculty ones, too. (Although I'm still mostly an LOTR girl.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Join us-it's like the Borg.

I'm going through a very low-fic-reading phase. RoP is probably the most regular thing I've been reading!:-)

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of what you've said about Remus, but there's one thing I definitely disagree with:

Remus forgot about his potion the night Peter's presence was revealed because he saw Peter's name on the map. I'd say that's a pretty big blow to his worldview, and the fact that he saw both Sirius's and Peter's names on the map, in conjunction with the kids'...

"The point is, even if you're wearing an Invisibility Cloak, you still show up on the Marauder's Map. I watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back toward the castle. But you were now accompanied by somebody else."

"What?" said Harry. "No, we weren't!"

"I couldn't believe my eyes," said Lupin, still pacing, and ignoring Harry's interruption. "I thought the map must be malfunctioning. How could he be with you?"

"No one was with us!" said Harry.

"And then I saw another dot, moving fast toward you, labeled Sirius Black.... I saw him collide with you; I watched as he pulled two of you
into the Whomping Willow --"

I can't honestly blame him for forgetting that Snape was going to come by with the potion if he was rushing off to see his not-actually-dead friend [who maybe was actually the traitor? Lupin seems to put it together fairly quickly in the shack - he had to be working the permutations out in his head], the possibly crazed murderer, and three kids, one of whom was the crazed murderer's alleged target.

I *do* blame him for forgetting it was the full moon that night (and Snape for not bringing the potion along, though I suppose it'd all have spilled by the time he got to the WIllow? though there must be spells for that. Or maybe the moon would have been up by then and the potion useless? Or was Snape just so excited about being able to hand Sirius and Remus over to the Dementors [and save Harry in the process], that he put the goblet down and rushed off?), but then, I also blame Rowling for not having him transform until the moon comes out from behind the clouds.

But I think his mental state can definitely be considered excited and not normal in that instance.

as for why he didn't want to take it in front of Harry, well, that could be because he was needling Snape (he does that for most of the book) or he didn't really want to take it because it reminds him that he owes Snape for making it (as he can't do it himself) or, yeah, like some people, he just doesn't like taking his medicine. Having been on paxil for years, after a whjile, I really resented having to take it and I knew someday I was going to get to stop. I know some diabetics who put off their insulin out of resentment (and end up paying for it, as well) and so I imagine that is a possibility for Remus, but he doesn't seem overtly resentful [which isn't to say he's not], just resigned.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Remus didn't have plenty of other big things on his mind that night--it's not like he was just wandering around and oops! Is tonight a full moon?:-)

It's more just that what's nice about it for me is that there's the groundwork laid before that that forgetting the Potion isn't out of the question. You're right--he's definitely resigned and not resentful--being resentful seems like something he just wouldn't waste that much time on. He has to take the Potion so what's the use of being sulky about it, I think. And you're right--his not taking the Potion immediately in front of Harry shouldn't be taken as a sign that he's refusing to take it, period.

But I love that that scene *does* set up Remus playing with the Potion a bit--it's not like he's anxiously awaiting Snape and then can't drink it fast enough when Snape shows up. It makes for a great power play with Snape, too, because Snape has some power over him for making the Potion, but he has power over Snape by appearing so casual abot it. So to me it just makes it all the more natural for him to forget the Potion when something more important comes up--it's not the first thing he thinks of, even on the night of the full moon. I feel like maybe without earlier scenes of Remus tempting fate in small ways his forgetfulness might seem more contrived, you know what I mean?

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

This was a very well thought out, well presented character analysis, and while I mostly agree with you on how you fleshed out his character and traits, but I'm hesitant about saying that he doesn't take his lycanthropy as seriously as he should.

I absolutely concur with you about Remus not being a "second class" friend. The way I look at it is, Remus is not as blatantly outgoing as James and Sirius, and certainly not an attention-getter. I think it was because of his lycanthropy that he chose to stay more behind the scenes. He really couldn't afford to have people notice his monthly disappearances, much less any consequences (like cuts, bruises, bandages or scars) of his absences. If anyone had found out and spread this knowledge around, he would have had no choice but to leave school, and I don't think he consciously took that sort of thing for granted.

Yes, James and Sirius were probably the closest of the four, since they were so much alike in both personality and intellect (from what we know, anyway), and the others (McGonagall, Madame Rosmerta, etc) noticed the two of them moreso than Remus and Peter, but let's face it. Remus seems the kind of person who could easily make himself unremarkable. And what the public is privy to may not necessarily be the whole truth about the relationship between them. The reason we don't know more is that the books are from Harry's persepctive, and he just doesn't ask the questions that we want him to. (How much time did he spend with Sirius at Grimmauld Place and the only time he really asked him about his father was after the Pensieve incident. Or when he found out Remus knew his dad during third year. Where were the questions?)

Anyway, when the others became animagi for him and they began their monthly marauding, it was just too big of a thing for him to say no to. It's easy to see James and Sirius being super persuasive and the fact they believed themselves capable of controlling Moony. Remus had no conscious memory of these nights, so we're led to believe, and even if there were some close calls, he only had James and Sirius' (and Peter's) word to go on. And at their age, it was a tremendous adventure. I happen to think Remus was isolated as a child and didn't have friends, so when he came to school... It wasn't that he was being a doormat at all. I think he also enjoyed those nights - he certainly didn't hurt himself as he did before (or so we're led to believe) and he was a teenage boy - he wanted it just as much as they did. I think of it as a sort of "twist my arm" kind of thing. And nobody did get hurt.

I happen to agree with you about the Snape incident and how fandom attaches more angst to it than there probably was. Regardless of Sirius' tendency to impulsiveness, I think Snape would have had to have goaded Sirius a bit more than usual for him to snap like that and tell him. I can see Remus being rightously pissed off at Sirius, and a little hurt but it wouldn't be as big of a deal as it's been made out to be in fandom because it doesn't fit withhis personality. Sure, it makes for good stories, but again, we'll probably never know because Harry doesn't ask.

I'm rambling, but one other thing:

when his friends knew there was a traitor, they thought of him

We have no actual evidence that James ever concurred with this. Someone was the traitor, yes, but does it actually say in canon that it had to be one of the four of them? I don't recall, but I've been immersed in fanon and it gets confusing to remember fanon from canon sometimes. Sirius knew it wasn't him or James, and obviously he didn't think Peter had the nerve to ever betray James, so it fell to Remus, who he knew could be very secretive when he had to be. And we also have no idea if there was any other odd behavior that would cause Sirius (or James) to suspect Remus. Did Peter make untoward comments to them to throw suspicion on each other and away from him? Again, we don't know. And that's why this issue is so ripe for fanfic.

Just my thoughts there. But I did love your essay and I've saved it to my memories! Thanks for doing such a wonderful job with my favorite character!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks--and you're definitely right. I don't mean to imply that Remus doesn't take his condition as seriously as he *should*, it's more just that I feel like the way that we, as non-werewolves, might think he should think about it is not necessarily the way he does. It's like anybody with a chronic illness, I would imagine. Somebody who doesn't have it might just have a whole different perspective on it so think he should relate to it differently than he does. You just can't know what it's like unless you're living with it.

I would agree Remus probably didn't have any friends before Hogwarts--makes him a bit like Harry, really! And like Harry I suspect this left him confident of being able to be alone--maybe even with the buried feeling that eventually he'd be alone again so he couldn't completely get comfortable with them. I think that would be more something that would draw the Marauders to him--not his looking lonely.

I'm not sure now exactly what evidence we have about who thought who was a traitor. I remember always thinking it was basically that Sirius suspected Remus somehow, but I can't remember if there was any specific thing we heard of as to why he might have suspected him.

It's weird to me how sometimes people seem to want to make the whole Snape/Sirius thing so black and white. Pre-OotP I thought the books made it clear that MWPP bullied Snape on occasion, yet a lot of people though no, Snape was mean to them and they were nice. Then after OotP things sometimes tipped the other way and sometimes people seemed to forget that Snape probably wasn't just this innocent, isolated kid who never did anything to them. It was an escalating feud.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

As far as illness analogies go, I think that lycanthropy as schizophrenia (or other severe mental illness) might be more apt. It's extremely stigmatized, despite the fact that it is not contagious and people who have it are only rarely dangerous -- yet, many people who have the disease despise the treatment and may enjoy their episodes of acute psychosis.

This idea of Remus, on some level, enjoying being a wolf doesn't seem at all far fetched to me. He doesn't seem to regret running loose with WPP (as you point out) and, while the exposure of his secret was dangerous to him, it very much earned him status with the other boys. Like Harry, Remus was the focal point of his group during school. However, I don't think he had any delusions about his control of the situation: it laid with Sirius and James, and ultimately the moon. But I think he enjoyed the attention, not only because of the perceived acceptance and because he was "liked", but because it allowed him to indulge a a supposedly shameful part of himself.

Now, how he could enjoy this part of himself, and yet still fear the moon? Possibly locus of control, reminder of the change (if not his illness itself) -- mostly I'm thinking the former. Remus seems to take great pride in not relying on others.

And, obviously, this all leads me to think he's quite like Harry, in a lot of ways. But I'm definitely not on the daddy!Remus bandwagon. Possibly they could learn a lot from each other, but I can help but feel that some fundamental trust was broken in PoA, and Harry doesn't grant it easily, or often, and he doesn't appear to forgive it's betrayal.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Word on everything there. And I do think that if one is going to have to use an analogy to a real world illness that some sort of mental disorder is the best bet--especially one that can lead to violent or destructive behavior. (Although of course those diseases aren't contagious.)

The fact that Remus was "less wolfish" with his friends also makes an interesting connection between how monsterous Remus is depending on how people treat him. If healthy connections and friendship can tame a werewolf, couldn't they have a good effect on nasty people as well, etc.

The fact that Remus' boggart is the full moon (if we assume he's telling the truth, which there's no reason to think he isn't) instead of, say, himself in wolf form does seem to point to the loss of control being the problem. And we see that in the book as well--Remus gets caught by the moon when he's vulnerable.

[erabarenai.livejournal.com]

Wonderful. Nice grasp on the character, not to mention this was just an interesting read. ^^ Thank you.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[jeddy83.livejournal.com]

Interesting post.

While I do agree with idea that fueled the post, there are a couple of things I don't, primarily this idea.

First because Remus just seems too grown-up to care about letting Dumbledore down that much as a kid.

I'm assuming that this relates to your view of Remus as being calm and in control. And I agree that he certainly does appear that way, but I don't think it is anything more than a veneer he has created to protect himself. I don't think it is that much of a stretch considering how little control he has over his life and all the disappointments it has brought him, being a werewolf is the least of them really, and I think we do get glimpses of what lies beneath the facade: his thoughtless flight upon seeing Peter and Sirius on the map in PoA, his desperation when he was trying to prevent Harry from following Sirius into the veil, and his reaction to Sirius's death. I think it is his need to be in control that drives his calm demeanour and what makes him hold people at arms length.

He does genuinely want to be liked, and not disliked. He just doesn't trust people enough to let them get close. He and Snape are very similar in that way, though they use vastly different means to achieve the same end.

Therefore, I tend to take his statement regarding his reasons for not telling Dumbledore about Sirius at face value. Though I doubt his reasons for not wanting to disappoint Dumbledore are anything like as simple as that statement makes them seem.

I also tend to think that, like most things in life, Sirius and Remus's mutual suspicions are the result of multiple factors. No doubt Remus's personality was one factor, but the prank had to drive a wedge between them (and therefore all the marauders), even if things appeared to have been patched up on the surface. I'm equally sure that the fact that Sirius belonged to the "Noble House of Black" was a factor, as was their inability to believe that Peter could have been the spy. And that to me seems to have been the critical factor. Neither of them seemed to have believed Peter capable of deceiving them in that way, yet the spy must have been someone close to them, which didn't leave very many other choices.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Therefore, I tend to take his statement regarding his reasons for not telling Dumbledore about Sirius at face value. Though I doubt his reasons for not wanting to disappoint Dumbledore are anything like as simple as that statement makes them seem.

This sounds like something I agree with. Because I think you're right there's no reason for Remus to *lie* outright here, and it's hard to imagine him pretending to feel this when he doesn't.

Your bringing up the suspicions they all had (especially the way both Sirius and Remus had "genetic" points against them as a werewolf and a Black) does throw his line about Dumbledore into a different light. Remus actually does have good reasons for not wanting Dumbledore not to know he abused his trust beyond the sort of boyish shame that came to my mind when I first read the line.

Thanks! That makes me totally understand the line better now--I think you're right!

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

This essay pretty much sums up my views on Remus and the reasons why I like writing him so much.

I know JKR has said his greatest weakness is he wants to be liked, but I don't think that always translates into what people think of when they hear that term.

I entirely agree with you here. I don't know why the general assumption seems to be that being liked is a weakness and that it turns people into doormats. Being liked is such a neutral and generic term - there are no deep feelings involved, it merely means that one's not actively disliked.

And this is something that costitues a major part of Remus' characterisation for me: He uses the fact that he's "being liked" as a weapon. Because of his condition, people's initial reaction to him is distrust. His reaction, in turn, is to present a bland, pleasant facade which doesn't provide any ground to attack him on. His method to deal with those who antagonise him is to ignore provocations to never lose his temper, which is bound to drive a man like Snape mad. (I'm with musesfool on that Remus actively needles Snape all throughout PoA.) I'm pretty sure that those who like him do not more than that: They like him, but they don't care for him on a deeper emotional level. Remus is quite detached from his own emotions, and he doesn't evoke strong emotions in others. What he does evoke is respect and a general acceptance.

I consider his method a weapon because uses his pleasantness as a shield as well as a means to stab and prod without giving his victim any ground to retaliate on. And I also think that It makes for a great power play with Snape, too, because Snape has some power over him for making the Potion, but he has power over Snape by appearing so casual abot it. If Snape tried to approach him for not drinking it straightaway, Remus would simply give him a mild look and say, "But I told you, Severus, I would drink it later," as though he couldn't understand what Snape was so upset about.

That much said, I also think that Remus was far more insecure in his social interactions as a child and teenager. Werewolves are considered vicious, bloodthirsty creatures, and I imagine that young Remus doing his best to give the impression of being as un-vicious and un-bloodthirsty as possible - and became passive. I think that he truly didn't have the guts to stand up to James and Sirius (especially repeatedly), not merely because he was afraid to lose their friendship, but also because James and Sirius gave the impression of being rather careless about his secret and Remus lived in fear that they might let it slip one day. The reason what I admire his character, however, is that he took all his weaknesses - his tendency to step back, his unwillingness to interfere and take responsibility - and turned them into that weapon that he wields against an environment that made him develop those weaknesses in the first place.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Yet it was Remus that actively stated in public that he was a werewolf in the Pensieve scene. James and Sirius were darting around it and Remus was the one that said it. Somehow I don't think that's a fear he had, at least not by 15, and I don't think he had it by the time he went to school at all, given that he'd been living with the disease for most his life already by then.

- Andrea.

Interesting read

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

There were a lot of times that I was just nodding at various parts of it. Thanks for having a well thought out essay towards this character, since many studies of Lupin tends to get warped by sentiment and the rest of it. This was a good, long and hard look at a character that not many people can get a handle on.

Re: Interesting read

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I can see where the sentiment comes from--I think I've just always preferred this reading. But I'm glad others see him the same way!

Part 1

[tiranog.livejournal.com]

Wow! What a wonderful Remus post! He's one of my all time favorite characters because he's one of the few in HP who isn't one dimensional. There are questions about Remus, about his conduct, his loyalty, etc., that make him just as complicated a character as Snape.

You bring up some fascinating points.

On the Marauder bullying stuff, I always saw Remus as being above that kind of thing. I don't think he approved of J&S' behavior, but I think he valued their friendship too much to actually make an issue of it. There's also another thing to keep in mind. J&S knew Remus' secret. If they had a change of heart regarding him and revealed it to the school, it could have gotten him killed. In some ways, RL was as much a victim of their bullying as Snape was. Real friends wouldn't have put him in the situation of having to chose to ignore his duty that way. If they'd wanted to torment SS, they could have easily have done it outside of Remus' presence, but they didn't, because J&S knew Remus couldn't tell on them, not without risking their revealing his secret. Neither of them needed to ever voice that kind of threat, because RL was smart enough to figure it out himself. I felt terribly sorry for Remus in that pensieve scene because I think he probably wanted to do the right thing and didn't dare.

The biggest issue about Remus to me is how he keeps silent about Sirius shape-shifting ability when it seems Sirius really is trying to kill Harry, whom we have seen Remus befriend and become a mentor to. I think Remus keeps his silence on Sirius' abilities because deep down, he couldn't believe that Sirius could ever kill James. I try to think about his position in terms of my own living situation. I live with two friends who have been best friends for more than twenty years. If one of them were killed and the other accused and unwilling to discuss what happened (in short, appeared barking mad when captured), I don't know that I would ever fully believe that one could have killed the other, no matter the circumstantial evidence. I might have doubts over the years that haunted me (like Remus' seemed to have), but I think if the accused friend escaped from prison, and I knew where she were hiding, and she hadn't killed anyone else since her escape, for all that the entire world was frightened and hunting her, I might keep my silence, too. It's a very weird situation.

The whole Wolfsbane forgetting issue is complicated as well. Though JKR never says so, it's possible that the closer Remus gets to the full moon, the less rational he is. I think the change itself is probably horrificly painful, but I suspect that maybe being in wolf form is rather liberating for a man who has to always be on guard and watch his every word, lest others find out he's a werewolf and kill him. I think there's a part of Remus that probably wants to be the wolf all the time, to not have to deal with the prejudice and danger he faces in human form. You also brought up a very significant point, that as much as he might seem to like people, underneath it all, Remus might harbor resentment for those he knows would turn against him the moment his secret was revealed. In his defense, though, when he forgot the wolfsbane in PoA, he was finally resolving what had to be the most traumatic emotional crisis of his entire life - the murder of one of his best friends by his other best friend. I think anyone would forget to take their medication for a while under similar circumstances, and, unfortunately, Remus has a restrictive timeline on taking his.

Cont. in part 2

Re: Part 2

[tiranog.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts on Harry and Remus' relationship are very convincing. It always seemed weird to me how Harry was so fixated on Sirius. Sirius' inability to separate Harry and James in his mind really creeped me out. It seemed very unhealthy (especially if you are looking at slash overtones between SB & JP). Remus was one of the few adults in cannon who didn't seem to have a private agenda with HP. To me, it would have made far more sense that HP become close to Remus, but like you said, that never happened. I suppose it's possible that HP felt betrayed by RL's keeping SB's secret, even though JKR never addressed it. I mean, if SB had been a murdering lunatic after HP, things could have turned out quite badly for HP because of RL's silence. Even though Harry might understand the conflict in loyalties, he'd have to be upset that one of the few adults he trusted (and one who was his teacher & suypposed to be thinking of his best interests) chose to withold information that could have killed him.

All in all, Remus' relationships to all the characters is a very complex one, layered with secrets and betrayals.

Thanks so much for the great post! Cheers.

[laurificus.livejournal.com]

we don't know
whether Remus views (the prank) this way

You're right about that, and also we *still* don't know what actually happened, you know?

JK tells us there'll be more coming up about it, which implies there's more than simply Sirius gets mad and tells Snape what to do, and I still think something happened after the prank, because that scene shouts that Sirius feels contempt for Snape, but contempt is a vastly different emotion than loathing, which appears to be what's between Sirius and Snape by PoA.



I'm resistant to Perfect!Dad or Mommy!Remus who's the best adult in Harry's life and wuvs him so much and is the only person who puts
Harry's best interest first.

I'm resistant to it mostly because I just can't see any evidence that it's true.

I think he cares about him; I think he's one of the few people who view him as a person with his own identity, but I don't understand how anyone can read PoA and still decide that, above all else, Remus cares about Harry.

Regardless of his reasons -- and I kind of agree with you about why he doesn't tell Dumbledore -- he teaches Harry, he befriends him, he gains his trust, and yet all the time he's perfectly aware that there's someone out to kill him, and that that someone is more than capable of succeeding if he wants to. Those aren't the actions of a parent. They're barely the actions of a decent human being -- and I say that as someone who, mostly, really likes Remus.

Despite Sirius's faults, and they're numerous, when things are rough for Harry, it's he who drops everything to be there, and it's Hagrid and the Weasleys who deal with the everyday things that worry him.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

JK tells us there'll be more coming up about it, which implies there's more than simply Sirius gets mad and tells Snape what to do, and I still think something happened after the prank, because that scene shouts that Sirius feels contempt for Snape, but contempt is a vastly different emotion than loathing, which appears to be what's between Sirius and Snape by PoA.


Not to mention James is still a bit of a cypher. In fandom people tend to see Sirius/Snape and Sirius/Remus as being the more intense relationships, yet Dumbledore first says it was Snape and James that hated each other. It's James who picks on Snape in this scene when Sirius says he's bored, it's James Snape owes the life debt to and it's Harry Snape can't stand.

And yet it's Sirius who pulled the Prank and James who stopped him. Yes, I definitely think there's more we have to learn about it.

Those aren't the actions of a parent. They're barely the actions of a decent human being -- and I say that as someone who, mostly, really likes Remus.

Despite Sirius's faults, and they're numerous, when things are rough for Harry, it's he who drops everything to be there, and it's Hagrid and the Weasleys who deal with the everyday things that worry him.

Exactly. And strangely that's part of why I *do* like Remus. There's something really intriguing to me about his actions in PoA--he *is* working against Harry and as I said above to [Unknown site tag], he is ultimately dangerous to him when he's a werewolf. It seems like that's somehow significant, you know? Obviously wolf!Remus isn't the same as Man!Remus, and the man wouldn't have attacked Harry. But it's just more reason that the idea of a Remus who cares about Harry above all is uncanonical. Even Snape has a better record with him on some levels.

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

I have a friend who's bipolar who once told me she hated the taste of her pills, and realized it was because she just literally hated having to take her pills on many levels.


The taste?


There've been many reasons I've loathed taking certain meds, but it was because of the side effects, not the taste.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm sure there were many other things she hated taking about them too! I just remember this one time she said she realized she hated the TASTE of them so much--and thought this was probably psychological. Really she hated all the other things, but even the taste became intolerable!

[(Anonymous)]

This is such an amazing post! Your Lupin analysis really makes sense to me.

"Any ideas about Remus have to include the fact that when his friends knew there was a traitor, they thought of him--ironically, James trusts Sirius as Secret Keeper and Sirius trusts Peter, despite the fact that Remus is probably the one most used to keeping secrets--or perhaps BECAUSE he's the one most used to keeping secrets."

Yes, in a weird sense that makes sense. Being able to keep secrets, *really* keep secrets, is a somewhat sinister and anti-social trait, and often it may be more easy to trust somebody who's potential for betrayal is obvious. I mean, Sirius trust Peter because he believes Peter incapable of hiding betrayal. Like if you know somebody who's a blabbermouth and a gossip you can always trust them to talk, but if you know somebody who never gossips to you, you still don't know that they don't gossip to other people... And in a time of war and pressure and paranoia, that paranoia could work against Lupin's kind of secret keeping; what is he keeping from us *this time*, when last time it was being a werewolf...


"And I just sort of like the idea that Remus is not entirely compliant when it comes to his meds, as real people sometimes aren't. Rather than Remus being ultra-responsible about his illness and horrified at the idea of infecting someone, perhaps he doesn't identify himself as a big danger"

I agree. He's been a werewolf, what, twenty-thirty years now? Most of that time without wolfsbane. I'd assume he's assimilated the wolf part into his feeling of self by now, it's not as if his transformations longer are surprising or unknown. He still fears the moon, but he must have accumulated skills to deal with it, to a degree of maybe forgetting how it would seem to an outsider. I mean, forget the AIDS analogies (and how they make us hit that back button), just consider mastering any potentially dangerous skill. Like downhill skiing (or rollerblading...) -- that's dangerous! And you're going to fall, and hurt yourself, and then you'll master it and you won't fall (as often) and if the hill is really steep somebody else might say "oh my god how can you *do* that?" and you'll be puzzled and wonder what they're talking about, or maybe be proud that others find something you master to perfection to be scary or difficult.


"Remus doesn't even come into Harry's head."

So, so true.
And it does seem as if the opposite is true, as well... which *is* kind of weird. OK so Lupin is an adult, while Sirius is not, but why doesn't he at least seem curious about Harry and his life? Harry is the son of one of his best friends, I think I'd feel some connection with the kid, maybe even responsibility, but no, he treats Harry as every other student. Fair, but weird. Especially so because Harry is a link with what I suppose was a happy place in his mind, going to Hogwarts, that is. I suppose it could be painful visiting those memories, but even so I'd expect something ... more. He doesn't have to *love* or *need* or even *like* Harry, but shouldn't he at least acknowledge their link?

With your understanding of his character, if you have an explanation that makes sense, please, Sistermagpie, knock some sense into my head!

- Clara

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! And yes, I do think the very things that people like about Remus make him suspicious. In fact, it sort of reminds me of one time a friend of mine jokingly said, "Well, everybody knows that you're evil." I was like...uh, what? And she said the problem was that when ever people got into fights I was always friends with everybody instead of being on one side or the other. Now, I probably just considered this reasonable--I could see both sides of the issue or whatever. But it was also apparently suspicious, because if I was on both sides, I was really on neither!

I agree. He's been a werewolf, what, twenty-thirty years now? Most of that time without wolfsbane. I'd assume he's assimilated the wolf part into his feeling of self by now, it's not as if his transformations longer are surprising or unknown.

It would be interesting to think about how Remus sees other people in that light. Everyone in the "outside world" must have ideas about what it's like, but I suspect they're not accurate. And then there's the added problem that I don't think werewolves tend to seek each other out too much. If it's a disease considered shameful they might all be isolated. And I'd suspect the WW prefers them that way--don't want them forming any packs!

With your understanding of his character, if you have an explanation that makes sense, please, Sistermagpie, knock some sense into my head!

I don't know! But it definitely seems important to me. Like I said above, Remus is actually dangerous to Harry in PoA--is that significant? The fact that he seemingly "chooses" Sirius over Harry makes you wonder if Remus has some ambivalence about Harry--given that he's got an instinct to be liked you can't necessarily judge his feelings the way you can with Snape. (I mean, some people are sure Snape just pretends to like Draco for political reasons, but it's hard to imagine Snape hiding his dislike of anyone...it would be far easier to believe, personality-wise, that Lupin was pretending to like a student.)

I honestly think JKR could pull something incredibly surprising with Remus at this point given the way he's written so far. Why does he, as a Marauder, not seem to feel the same kind of responsibility to Harry that Sirius does? Sirius, after all, has been thinking about Harry since James died. Remus makes no attempt to make contact with him until Dumbledore brings him (Remus) to Hogwart's.I wonder if there's any extenuating circumstances here that explain it.

[samaranth.livejournal.com]

This is a great analysis of Lupin, Magpie. Thank you – it has been a very, very interesting read.

One small thing that occurred to me, while thinking about how it would be to be ‘infected’ as a small child, to grow up with this condition which appears to be physically traumatic, and yet not terminal (which is where the ‘disease’ analogies tend to fall down). It just turns you into a monster with monotonous regularity. I’d agree that the loss of control (ie, the loss of human consciousness) would be something to fear, along with fear of the pain. Lupin would have to develop mechanisms to deal with it, as all people who suffer a chronic condition must do in order just to live day to day, but it wouldn’t make it any less fearful. How must it have been to have arrived at Hogwarts, finally after a childhood which I imagine was completely isolated…there’s no indication either (that I can remember) of the level of support Lupin had from his own family, it could be that the friendship of the marauders was the first chance to build a relationship with other people, not just other kids his own age. (Apart from with Dumbledore, who knows everything about everyone, it seems.) He wouldn’t assume friendship as thoughtlessly as someone who is popular and attractive in the way that James and Sirius are described. Of course, he would want to be liked – who doesn’t want to know that they are respected, valued? But with Lupin I do get the impression that it’s on his own terms. This is not how he defines himself. He’s not going to adapt to be someone people like (in the way I would imagine Peter might), because he can’t really do that, what he is is inescapable. And while he’d value the friendships he has, and would work to keep them, I think Lupin would recognise that in the end he really is on his own. (IMO.)

It’s possible that this colours his attitude to Harry. The fact that Harry is James’ son would be important, but for there to be any kind of bond, I think Lupin would expect it to be founded on its own merits. Because no matter how close you were to one of the parents, there is no guarantee that you want to stand in loco parentis to the child. And besides, Lily and James chose Sirius as godfather, not Lupin. He was on the outside even before.

Becoming a wolf would be quite a powerful thing. Plus having the power to inflict that state on another person could be quite a tempting weapon, in the hands of less restrained individuals. Lupin, as an adult sounds very controlled. Gentle, but with a core of steel. His dealings with Snape in PoA are the epitome of courtesy – but again, on his own terms, and probably not always meant unprovocatively. He doesn’t seem to want to try and build bridges with Snape, just to live and let live his own life. However, as an adolescent, there must have been times when Lupin looked at someone and thought ‘All I’d have to do is bite…’ Forget prejudice, stigma, rejection – what’s the worth of that that in the face of fear?

It’s going to be interesting to see how Lupin is treated in the next couple of books.

(I’m not sure that I’m saying anything new here, but it’s been fun to write.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It was fun to read too!

And yeah, you do have to wonder if Lupin ever thought, "All I have to do is bite..." particularly since it's not a terminal illness, and it's held against him. Also, while it's frightening for him it's also familiar, so in some ways it's more frightening for others. Like above where saeva pointed out that in the Pensieve scene Lupin is the one most casually throwing around the fact that he's a werewolf. It may have always been more of a big deal for the others than it was for him.

It's making me think of that book/movie Damaged, which I've never read or seen, but I know there's a quote in it where somebody says something like that you shouldn't get involved with damaged people, because since they've been damaged and lived they see no reason not to damage others, if that makes sense. Lupin must know that the thing people fear the most about him is simply *becoming* him, which is an odd thing to think about, given that he probably doesn't find it so much awfully worse than being anyone else. I imagine it would be hard not to be tempted to tease people with it a little. He's been on the other side and knows it. Snape as a regular man keeps just flirting with it.

*c&p a lot*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

but he also just wants to keep his own secrets.

Remus doesn't even come into Harry's head.

He doesn't seem devastated at losing Sirius.

he doesn't seem like somebody who fears time spent alone.

He doesn't want to be loved--that's somebody else. He just wants people to like him, to not dislike him. There's something more potentially sinister in wanting people to like you, perhaps because it lacks the implied need of wanting love.

if you were going to suspect one of the Marauders, Remus has the kind of personality that would make you wonder if you could completely trust him--probably because, to put it simply, I don't think he trusts anyone else completely.

I don't know if that's a syntesis or just what struck me the most, but Magpie, only you can make me love Lupin. <3 <3 <3

Re: *c&p a lot*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yay! See you knew if I liked him it would have to be for some reason you could understand...and he'd probably be yet another potential traitor. :-)

[ljash.livejournal.com]

That's not really how I read Remus and I'm not sure I buy it, but I do like it.

What strikes me as the crux is the idea that Remus wants to be liked, but he does not try very hard (at all) to be loved. Sometimes I read him as someone who is so detached and distant that he simply can't figure out how to try to connect to people. He might want to, but its simply impossible, something which he can blame on his werewolfness. I imagined that when Harry turns to the man whom he thought was going to kill him ten minutes ago and gleefully agrees to live with him, that must have stung a bit. Perhaps he doesn't want to be loved and doesn't seek it out, or perhaps he's unobtrusive and everyone else just blows him off.

Yet it's also interesting the other way. What if he simply is amazingly detached? What if he doesn't want connection. What if he hates taking his meds, what if he secretly wants to be his full self and not be the constantly controlled force of decorum and goodness that he ends up having to be? He is the most controlled character in the novels (note--that's not saying a lot).

I do think that his attitude towards the lycanthropy is a bit different as an adult than as a student. He sort of gets to try to pretend to be normal, as no one knows him and only Dumbledore knows at first about his secret, but it's still hell on him. He described those transformations as being painful since he was locked up and I suppose confused. Being able to run around with others he can't hurt would be great. If it led to carelessness, well maybe that comes of trying to shrug off his burden. I don't see him as being so controlled as a teenager as he is as an adult, even if he was acting differently than everyone else in the Pensieve.

But he does still forget as an adult. Now I think he forgot because he saw Harry on the map and saw Sirius closing in on him, which made him just run for it. But he did put off taking the potion in other scenes, and maybe he did so that night, as well, and then was distracted by Harry's plight. Which is a serious thing, of course, yet he could have stopped to gulp the potion since it really was that important.

But controlled or not, forgetful and casual or not, it does seem consistant all the way through that Remus never really knew anybody and never really got close to anybody. He's a nice presence in the books, but you can see why everyone seems to forget him sometimes. It's very nice to see him when he shows up but you don't miss him when he's gone. Liked, very liked, but not loved.

hmm to be continued

[ljash.livejournal.com]

I do think he seemed a bit ashamed at various times, though. Maybe he really was ashamed to tell Dumbledore about Sirius. (I had always seen that not as being afraid Dumbledore wouldn't like it that he'd once broken the rules at age 15, but that it would have looked odd that he hadn't mentioned Sirius was an animagus right on the first day. It's important information to have, and once it becomes relevant then it doesn't look good that he didn't say anything before. If you put it off then it looks even worse later--these things are ridiculous but they can spiral in on themselves.) When talking about his past in the shack during Ending Exposition Scene he really did seem bitter and full of self-hatred about his teenage years when he endangered people. Of course, that's not shame.

I don't think Remus is just a wuss who does what others tell him. I don't think that at all. He wasn't Peter in the Pensieve. He was treated as a weird, cool but different equal. But he didn't seem happy about the way Snape was treated. He didn't seem desperately unhappy about it, but he wasn't totally uninterested. I got the impression he was trying not to see. Maybe along with being generally detached is not knowing what to do when something does matter, so you just wait it out. (wow that sentence was a grammatical trainwreck.)

Ok, my comments have not cohered into somethng that made sense. I guess I just liked this essay but it didn't inspire whole thoughts, more like things to think about. I agree with what you had to say about why he was so easy to suspect as the traitor. Whether his detachment is simply what he wants or if he's inept at connections, people are going to view him as different. He's a benevolent force of goodness in many ways, so Harry (and probably others) would be quick to trust him if someone simply had werewolf prejudice. But if told that someone you trust had to be the betrayer, no one could look at him and say they really knew that he'd never do something like that. However it feels to him on the inside, people look and see a controlled, nice, distant person. And people really do seem to blow him off a lot. Peter was blown off as a person--he was mocked and looked down on. He was tolerated; but that's kind of an active role. Remus was respected and forgotten. (Hmm that seems overgeneralized. Have to think about that.)

Ok I will stop rambling now. BUT not in time as I must split this into two. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't think we're too different in what we're seeing...it's just really hard to say for sure where Remus is coming from, since he's so calm on the outside. I do think he's really detached--I feel like it's not really that he doesn't *want* to be attached to people because I think he probably does. It's just that maybe he's so aware of himself as different (and maybe he is different, being a werewolf) that he doesn't quite know how to take that extra step.

For instance, Sirius just naturally gets really passionate and reckless when Harry's in danger. He just feels and acts. But Remus doesn't. Not because he doesn't care, exactly, but more that he just can't make himself into that type of person. Maybe I'm projecting there-I know I've felt that way sometimes, where some people seem to just automatically react with these strong emotions and I'm just sort of...gee, I wonder what that's like?

It's interesting to think of him feeling shame--because I do think he does feel some, I just think it's mixed with a lot of other things. Like, I don't think he wanted to be keeping a secret for Sirius all year, and he probably really did feel awful when it came out. But he still did it.

detatched

[tesseract-5.livejournal.com]

Excellent analysis of Suspicious!Remus, I saved it as a memory to go back to later, and share with others sistermagpie It's wonderful to see how JKR sets Remus as the responsible one of the MWPP, set a prefect to keep an eye on Sirius and James, kept on as very busy member of the Order, and the scene where all the other witches and wizards in the "rescue Harry" group at the beginning of OotP remembers to write the Duresley's a note, that Harry is alright, and will return.

I read Remus as being more able to look at things objectively, with a healthy sense of detatchment:
detatched: Def. 2: being or feeling set or kept apart from others; "she felt
detached from the group"; "could not remain the isolated
figure he had been"- Sherwood Anderson; "thought of
herself as alone and separated from the others"; "had a
set-apart feeling" [syn: isolated, separated, set-apart]

Unlike Sirius' hot blooded temper, or Snape's rushing to conclusions, Remus has had to adapt to how other's view him due to his werewolf condition, but hasn't let this make him entirely bitter, except about "that hag, Umbridge."

I'm so sick of seeing fics in which Remus is a pushover or suicidal all the time! thank you!

Re: detatched

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes--and thank you! That's very much how I see him--he's detached and can be objective and make decisions but he's surrounded by emotional people like Sirius. It really is great the way he's set up as the responsible one, only to have some of his biggest moments be moments of irresponsibility. It makes you think about what that word means and what's going on with Remus, what you're really seeing.

But definitely the pushover/suicidal Remus is just ridiculous. I don't think he'd have survived this long with that kind of personality.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this!

I have read plenty of fanfic where Remus is the mild Milk of Mylanta sort of person who juts go alongs for whatever. And it is not true.

I like the fact that you point out the Remus does not display the desperate need for belonging(Harry) Approval (Snape)or forgiveness and love( Sirius). He needs to be liked.

And I have been thinking that the fact that he feels he has to lie about his condition has created this person who is very distant, he could be nice when it serves his needs, but who can also turn off the world when it gets on his nerves.

Interesting, what you said about Dumbledore: He trust Remus, - I think that he trusts him a great deal. And no, he did not fight for Remus to keep that position(in PoA)- but then again Remus decided not to fight for his position. And there is the crux of it- Snape would fought for his position, and spit poison at who ever tried to take anything from him; Remus did not feel it was worth the bother.And if you don't feel it is worth the bother to keep yourself from poverty ( or going further, to keep your friends from behaving like jerks) then maybe other peopel should not stop you.

Given all the distancing, though, I suspect that Remus has gone through a great deal of emotional pain over the years- but he keeps it to himself, and does not lash out.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

And yes, that's just so how I see him. He can turn off the world or detach himself, and that makes him very different from the very emotional characters. Even Hermione is essentially very very emotional.

And that's a good point about Remus' job too--it's not a case of his tearfully leaving while Dumbledore does nothing. He's halfway out the door as soon as it happens. I can't imagine he asked Dumbledore to try to save his job, but he may have some mixed emotions about it.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I used to have to take meds, and often my mum or my friends would have to nag me into it. It's a kind of power play thing, I think - you're forced to take them, but you can exert power over when you do, and do it on your own terms rather than someone else's.
It's bratty, though, and I'd hope that if I was a danger to others off medicine, I'd be quicker to take it!

I was just reading this, since I met to reply to it a while ago, but I've realised: I have almost no opinion of Lupin, at all. Entirely ambivalent.
I'm not fond of him particularly, since he strikes me as a bit of a hypocrite, and because I never tend to warm to characters beloved in a narrative. Especially since, as with most 'good' characters, the fandom is insistent that he's a saint.
I like that he and Harry's relationship is fairly distant at present, and I hope it stays that way, though I doubt it will.
You know what I think is weird, though? What Lupin's even in Gryffindor for...
The few essays I have mem'd on Remus, I think bear out the points you made here, though.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/hp_essays/13079.html
http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/cat_lupin.html

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's bratty, though, and I'd hope that if I was a danger to others off medicine, I'd be quicker to take it!

One thing with Lupin is that he's an adult, so nobody should be making him take it. I think left on his own he would take it happily--since after all, he probably does like actually getting to have a job. But that's also why it ultimately all comes down to him whether he takes it or not.

Especially since, as with most 'good' characters, the fandom is insistent that he's a saint.

Exactly--and of course, I like him because hey, he totally lied to Harry and might have eaten him! And Harry doesn't think he's the bees knees, no matter what fandom says!

Good question on exactly what he's in Gryffindor for because it almost seems like he'd be most at home in Ravenclaw. Yeah, we know (or is it a fanon thing?) that Remus wasn't the natural genius James and Sirius were, but he still seems to lead with his head. And anyway, when somebody is described as being naturally smart in this series it almost never means smart anyway, because it really refers to being good at magic and that has nothing to do with intelligence. James and Sirius were skilled and magically powerful. I suspect Remus was smarter than both of them in many ways--especially Sirius. Honestly, can you really look at those two in OotP and say that Sirius is the smart one?