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Recent conversations got me thinking about kids and labels--or being labeled in childhood. As a kid I remember learning fairly early on that WHO you are--meaning who you are seen as--had a lot to do with the way you were treated.
One of the most important labels somebody could get in my town was that of a "good kid." I certainly knew to appreciate this by high school. I could cut class the same day as another girl, and probably have a much better chance of getting out of being punished, even if she actually had a much better reason for cutting class than I did. I might have just been being lazy, but because I created a better impression on the Dean of Discipline, he'd be more likely to not see my cutting class as a sign of a more serious problem. Really I was no better than this other girl--in plenty of ways maybe I was worse, only I had advantages she didn't.
In fact, a few years ago there was a sort of incident at my former high school where a few rich kids who also had a record of getting into trouble got out of being punished for something they were guilty of, and there was a great quote from some other kid who had gotten a similar punishment and had to just live through it. He said, "It just goes to show, it's who you know in this town." He was labeled as a kid who needed punishment to correct his ways; they were labeled as good kids who just made a mistake or were letting off steam. No matter how many times they let off steam.
Not that I would say one shouldn't consider a kid's record or the circumstances of the "crime" when deciding how to punish it. Sometimes punishment can undermine the point you're trying to make--you want to encourage the kid to act differently, not worse. Funny thing is many of the times I remember seeing kids get out of stuff it had nothing to do with that. In this case the kid who did get punished just dealt with it and went on with his life. The other kids wound up just completely undermining the authority of the teachers and principal and continued getting into trouble thinking Mommy and Daddy would protect them from any consequences, no matter how small. The "special circumstances" had nothing to do with their being really sorry or having a real need to break the rules. They just had to do with being class president with a father on the school board and a good rank on the tennis ladder at the country club.
The problem with the "good kids" approach to punishment is that of course it implies that who the kid is defines how bad his actions are instead of the other way around. How many times does one get in trouble before being considered a bad kid, after all? In my experience it can go on indefinitely if the kid is charming enough--since that's what we're really talking about. Similarly, a kid with a hostile attitude can be considered bad before he's ever done anything wrong, and just prove everybody right when he crosses the line. "Good kid"="one of us." It's human nature to get impressions like this, and human nature for teachers to like some kids more than others, of course. But still, kids aren't stupid. Not only do the "bad" kids quickly learn things that would get them punished get passed over for other kids, but the "good" kids learn they really are better than the other kids and deserve special privileges. Or at least that's the way they are treated--and there are a lot of kids for whom this is the last thing they need to learn.
The point where you really start to notice how this all works is probably usually at the moment you get labeled as something you don't really think fits you. My personal experience this has always sort of puzzled me because even now I don't really know what I did to get this label, but it followed me from grade school onward. My problem wasn't being a bad kid, but being...a stupid one? Maybe stupid's the wrong word. Basically it was just this: from a very early age--like first or second grade?--I always had to make an effort to ask to be put into higher levels of classes. The reason I was never sorted into them to begin with, when I was given one, was always the same: I didn't belong in those classes because I "was not a serious student." My notebooks were not "the notebooks of a serious student." My behavior in class was "not the behavior of a serious student." See, there was just something about *me* that clearly showed what I was, no matter what I expressed interest in or what grades I had.
The idea was actually summed up best by a friend of mine when I was a junior and he was a senior. I was taking AP (Advanced Placement) American History and he, being a year older, was taking AP European History. I happened to mention the textbook we used in AP American and he looked at me in genuine surprise and said, "You take AP History?" I said yeah...why would this be surprising? And he said, "You don't come across like an honors student. You come across like a...dope."
Errr..a dope? I didn't really get it (dopey me!). My AP History teacher agreed with him btw--she didn't care much for me. At one point when I raised my hand in class she said, "Ah, Magpie. Here's someone who rarely contributes anything to class of an informed nature." Dude! Perhaps in her eyes I was Lavender Brown? No, I can't think I was that. I wasn't girlie or into make-up and boys and stuff. (Heh--realizing I wasn't pretty enough was a whole other milestone and a whole other post!) I just didn't take anything "seriously." This was made very clear--I was never in trouble in terms of, "Sorry Magpie, but you're not working up to the level of this class. Maybe you have to be in regular English." It was stated very clearly as, "Well, you can do the work, but there is something wrong with who you are as a person. You just don't "belong" in the class because you are clearly not the right type, even if you're masquerading as one now."
The weird thing was I did take it seriously--I was the right type, I felt. I mean, I may be giving the impression I was the kind of student who could slack off all year and then get A's but I wasn't. The truth is I did have to put some effort in--which I did because I enjoyed the material. That was probably what made it so frustrating for me--obviously I *was* a serious student because why else would I have always gone out of my way to make the effort to get myself placed in these classes I was left out of by the school? Why did I always wind up in these insane conversations where I'd be explaining, "But I'm getting an A in the class. Doesn't that mean I belong in the honors class? Especially if you think I'm doing it without working hard enough?" I liked the material, I just didn't show it in an acceptable way. In fact I wound up spending one year in a regular class which was borderline remedial because it was "where I belonged" and the teacher was furious. Not at me, but just at the fact that the school had obviously wasted a year of my education teaching me basic things I thought everyone learned from watching TV and reading. (Again, it wasn't that I was brilliantly smart, it was just I knew this stuff.) I wasn't the best student in honor's classes but I was obviously doing fine in the class. Sometimes I did wind up doing really well in the class...but it didn't matter. That was probably, like, further proof of the injustice of it all, me with my non-serious high-marks on the AP test. I mean, I could see people who actually struggled more than I did *still* be held up as better students or never have to fight for their place in the class. I mean yeah, AS obviously did a lot more busywork than I did. She knew to have notes that the teacher approved of, probably involving color coding (it's not my fault my own preference for highlighting a book isn't even offered until college!). That didn't change the fact that she managed to miss the point of pretty much EVERYTHING EVER PRESENTED.
Anyway, the thing about this is it just taught me that obviously who you were in the eyes of teachers and the school sometimes far outweighed neutral requirements like competence or interest. Because for me, like I said, there was almost this level of surprise involved. Like when I was in second grade I surprised the teacher when I (who was pretty shy back then) said I wanted to be in a higher reading group. I liked to read, I liked talking about stories. I hated to think there were other students being given things that I wasn't, which I think I associated with higher groups of anything. Once I got into the group I often still got the "not serious" problem...sometimes I honestly think I may have just had too much fun.
This attitude followed me to work as well, btw. More than once I've been accused, for instance, of taking too many sick days at a job where I had never missed a day of work. I had one boss literally call me a liar and pull out the timesheet to show me all my supposed absences when I hadn't taken a single day off. And of course at the same job there was the other person, the one we all know, who always had some reason for coming in late or being sick or switching her shift and yet was known as being totally reliable because she knew how to give the impression of working too hard.
I decided the two things are related. I don't know exactly what it is I *do* to give this impression, but somehow I give people the impression of not really being there, or enjoying myself, or just not being burdened enough. Whereas I'd notice these other people probably just instinctively knew how to act like they were overworked, slipping in things like, "I was hear until 8 o'clock last night," or "I'll probably come in on Saturday," or "I feel so dizzy I think I may pass out but I've just got so much work to do..." when if I wound up staying late I never found a way to work it into conversation, while she came in on Saturday for five minutes to send e-mails and show she was there and barely got through a week without taking some time off due to her delicate constitution.
Well, that was a lot of blather about me...but does anybody else have memories like that, or times when that happens now? Where you see how sometimes you just get seen as something that doesn't really fit you? Do you remember times when you were a kid when you saw this kind of thing at work and it had an effect on the way you thought the world worked? Did you ever figure out what you might have been doing to give that impression, or what preferences the teachers had that determined whether you were favored or not?
One of the most important labels somebody could get in my town was that of a "good kid." I certainly knew to appreciate this by high school. I could cut class the same day as another girl, and probably have a much better chance of getting out of being punished, even if she actually had a much better reason for cutting class than I did. I might have just been being lazy, but because I created a better impression on the Dean of Discipline, he'd be more likely to not see my cutting class as a sign of a more serious problem. Really I was no better than this other girl--in plenty of ways maybe I was worse, only I had advantages she didn't.
In fact, a few years ago there was a sort of incident at my former high school where a few rich kids who also had a record of getting into trouble got out of being punished for something they were guilty of, and there was a great quote from some other kid who had gotten a similar punishment and had to just live through it. He said, "It just goes to show, it's who you know in this town." He was labeled as a kid who needed punishment to correct his ways; they were labeled as good kids who just made a mistake or were letting off steam. No matter how many times they let off steam.
Not that I would say one shouldn't consider a kid's record or the circumstances of the "crime" when deciding how to punish it. Sometimes punishment can undermine the point you're trying to make--you want to encourage the kid to act differently, not worse. Funny thing is many of the times I remember seeing kids get out of stuff it had nothing to do with that. In this case the kid who did get punished just dealt with it and went on with his life. The other kids wound up just completely undermining the authority of the teachers and principal and continued getting into trouble thinking Mommy and Daddy would protect them from any consequences, no matter how small. The "special circumstances" had nothing to do with their being really sorry or having a real need to break the rules. They just had to do with being class president with a father on the school board and a good rank on the tennis ladder at the country club.
The problem with the "good kids" approach to punishment is that of course it implies that who the kid is defines how bad his actions are instead of the other way around. How many times does one get in trouble before being considered a bad kid, after all? In my experience it can go on indefinitely if the kid is charming enough--since that's what we're really talking about. Similarly, a kid with a hostile attitude can be considered bad before he's ever done anything wrong, and just prove everybody right when he crosses the line. "Good kid"="one of us." It's human nature to get impressions like this, and human nature for teachers to like some kids more than others, of course. But still, kids aren't stupid. Not only do the "bad" kids quickly learn things that would get them punished get passed over for other kids, but the "good" kids learn they really are better than the other kids and deserve special privileges. Or at least that's the way they are treated--and there are a lot of kids for whom this is the last thing they need to learn.
The point where you really start to notice how this all works is probably usually at the moment you get labeled as something you don't really think fits you. My personal experience this has always sort of puzzled me because even now I don't really know what I did to get this label, but it followed me from grade school onward. My problem wasn't being a bad kid, but being...a stupid one? Maybe stupid's the wrong word. Basically it was just this: from a very early age--like first or second grade?--I always had to make an effort to ask to be put into higher levels of classes. The reason I was never sorted into them to begin with, when I was given one, was always the same: I didn't belong in those classes because I "was not a serious student." My notebooks were not "the notebooks of a serious student." My behavior in class was "not the behavior of a serious student." See, there was just something about *me* that clearly showed what I was, no matter what I expressed interest in or what grades I had.
The idea was actually summed up best by a friend of mine when I was a junior and he was a senior. I was taking AP (Advanced Placement) American History and he, being a year older, was taking AP European History. I happened to mention the textbook we used in AP American and he looked at me in genuine surprise and said, "You take AP History?" I said yeah...why would this be surprising? And he said, "You don't come across like an honors student. You come across like a...dope."
Errr..a dope? I didn't really get it (dopey me!). My AP History teacher agreed with him btw--she didn't care much for me. At one point when I raised my hand in class she said, "Ah, Magpie. Here's someone who rarely contributes anything to class of an informed nature." Dude! Perhaps in her eyes I was Lavender Brown? No, I can't think I was that. I wasn't girlie or into make-up and boys and stuff. (Heh--realizing I wasn't pretty enough was a whole other milestone and a whole other post!) I just didn't take anything "seriously." This was made very clear--I was never in trouble in terms of, "Sorry Magpie, but you're not working up to the level of this class. Maybe you have to be in regular English." It was stated very clearly as, "Well, you can do the work, but there is something wrong with who you are as a person. You just don't "belong" in the class because you are clearly not the right type, even if you're masquerading as one now."
The weird thing was I did take it seriously--I was the right type, I felt. I mean, I may be giving the impression I was the kind of student who could slack off all year and then get A's but I wasn't. The truth is I did have to put some effort in--which I did because I enjoyed the material. That was probably what made it so frustrating for me--obviously I *was* a serious student because why else would I have always gone out of my way to make the effort to get myself placed in these classes I was left out of by the school? Why did I always wind up in these insane conversations where I'd be explaining, "But I'm getting an A in the class. Doesn't that mean I belong in the honors class? Especially if you think I'm doing it without working hard enough?" I liked the material, I just didn't show it in an acceptable way. In fact I wound up spending one year in a regular class which was borderline remedial because it was "where I belonged" and the teacher was furious. Not at me, but just at the fact that the school had obviously wasted a year of my education teaching me basic things I thought everyone learned from watching TV and reading. (Again, it wasn't that I was brilliantly smart, it was just I knew this stuff.) I wasn't the best student in honor's classes but I was obviously doing fine in the class. Sometimes I did wind up doing really well in the class...but it didn't matter. That was probably, like, further proof of the injustice of it all, me with my non-serious high-marks on the AP test. I mean, I could see people who actually struggled more than I did *still* be held up as better students or never have to fight for their place in the class. I mean yeah, AS obviously did a lot more busywork than I did. She knew to have notes that the teacher approved of, probably involving color coding (it's not my fault my own preference for highlighting a book isn't even offered until college!). That didn't change the fact that she managed to miss the point of pretty much EVERYTHING EVER PRESENTED.
Anyway, the thing about this is it just taught me that obviously who you were in the eyes of teachers and the school sometimes far outweighed neutral requirements like competence or interest. Because for me, like I said, there was almost this level of surprise involved. Like when I was in second grade I surprised the teacher when I (who was pretty shy back then) said I wanted to be in a higher reading group. I liked to read, I liked talking about stories. I hated to think there were other students being given things that I wasn't, which I think I associated with higher groups of anything. Once I got into the group I often still got the "not serious" problem...sometimes I honestly think I may have just had too much fun.
This attitude followed me to work as well, btw. More than once I've been accused, for instance, of taking too many sick days at a job where I had never missed a day of work. I had one boss literally call me a liar and pull out the timesheet to show me all my supposed absences when I hadn't taken a single day off. And of course at the same job there was the other person, the one we all know, who always had some reason for coming in late or being sick or switching her shift and yet was known as being totally reliable because she knew how to give the impression of working too hard.
I decided the two things are related. I don't know exactly what it is I *do* to give this impression, but somehow I give people the impression of not really being there, or enjoying myself, or just not being burdened enough. Whereas I'd notice these other people probably just instinctively knew how to act like they were overworked, slipping in things like, "I was hear until 8 o'clock last night," or "I'll probably come in on Saturday," or "I feel so dizzy I think I may pass out but I've just got so much work to do..." when if I wound up staying late I never found a way to work it into conversation, while she came in on Saturday for five minutes to send e-mails and show she was there and barely got through a week without taking some time off due to her delicate constitution.
Well, that was a lot of blather about me...but does anybody else have memories like that, or times when that happens now? Where you see how sometimes you just get seen as something that doesn't really fit you? Do you remember times when you were a kid when you saw this kind of thing at work and it had an effect on the way you thought the world worked? Did you ever figure out what you might have been doing to give that impression, or what preferences the teachers had that determined whether you were favored or not?
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And I can definitely relate to your memories of being a "good kid" - no matter what I did in school to break the rules, I was never punished for anything. I was friendly and polite and had a good reputation. That definitely worked to my advantage all through school.
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One more thing -
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I do think that being labeled a non-serious student can work to your disadvantage in the way you described, probably especially when you're a kid. Sometimes having a teacher take enough interest to want you to do better can make you want to work harder. I know I sometimes feel like if I'm not going to be ever able to be the best there's no reason to try. Not that I need to be the best at all, I just don't like the idea that I'm not being judged on the same level from the outset.
Though it's also fun to surprise people when it turns out they were wrong--like how come the person who was supposed to be so serious about school isn't the one who got the advanced degrees or continued to be interested in this stuff?
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Heeeeee! Whatever happened in that encounter with the boss who was so convinced you had so many absences that you actually didn't, anyway? That must have been a hell of an awkward moment for him.
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Another time, though, with a different boss, I had a more satisfying ending to that kind of thing. I did call in sick and she was just very brusque about it, acting like she clearly didn't believe I was really sick. And when she mentioned it to someone else they said how I was never sick--which made her realize it wasn't me that was never there, it was that other person. So she apologized when I came back in. I really appreciated that because in fact one of the reasons I never call in sick is that I *never* think I'm going to be believed and often do get that kind of impatience about it...and that probably leads me to frankly sound even more guilty and nervous and perpetuate the cycle!
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I guess part of it is because I always conciously strive to appear attentive and interested and curious about whatever my superior is telling me. I always make a point in speaking up and asking questions and nodding attentively at the answer. (It's a hell of a lot easier to do that than to do actual work!) Even if you're not the sharpest pick in the barrel, people almost always favor you if you give the impression that you look up to them and take their work seriously. It's not so much kissing their butt as it is kissing up to their work.
It's almost as though I'm building up a rappaport with my superiors-- and it's not just done verbally. I also do things like touch them on their hands and shoulders, make frequent eye-contact, lean in towards them when they speak to me, always smile (or pretend to supress a laugh) when they make a joke, etc. etc. It's the sort of thing a person would do on a date-- it's almost like wooing your boss and making them think that you really respect them.
I'm a tutor myself now, so I think I have a little bit of insight about what teachers want to see in their students. I think most teachers can like even the hopeless of students, as long as those students give off the impression that they're paying attention and working hard to do as well as they can. There's very little that pisses off a teacher like a student who doesn't even bother to do the work or listen to instructions... and I'm afraid that in your youth, you might have given off that impression somehow. Not quite sure how, but that might be the reason so many of your teachers disliked you! (OR they could have been psychotic and using you as the class chewtoy. Oh God, I've been through that too, in grade school, when I first got to the US and didn't know English. And I had one of those awful bitch-banshees as a Spanish teacher in High School as well. What a nightmare!)
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As a kid I think I did get that there was something I was doing that people picked up on--it was probably just hard for me to get the perspective to see what it was. Like when I looked at other people I might have been able to tell what they did that put people off, while I couldn't do that with myself. It's funny because I think in other situations I probably do the right things--like in a one-on-one interview I probably know to smile and nod and all that. But once I'm in a class I'm like, "Okay, get invisible."
There's very little that pisses off a teacher like a student who doesn't even bother to do the work or listen to instructions... and I'm afraid that in your youth, you might have given off that impression somehow.
Heh--I'm sure I must have done something! Though, you know, based on things that were said to me at the time, I don't think I gave off the impression I wasn't bothering but more the impression that I thought something was silly even if I did it. Like...there weren't too many teachers who disliked me, really. There were a few. Some teachers liked me a lot and I think the ones that didn't like me probably didn't like me for the same reason other teachers liked me if they did. (I suspect that happens with a lot of kids who are somewhat good students-one teacher's pet is another teacher's tedious know-it-all, for example.) Cause I don't think I gave off the air that I wasn't trying so much as a vibe that I didn't respect certain aspects of the class.
Like...now that I think about it, I suspect I gave off an irreverent vibe. It wasn't really that I had anything personally against the teacher or the class, it was more just a general attitude I had that everything was funny and the whole situation was silly, and some of the stuff we studied was also funny--some teachers took that personally, I think. And sometimes I really was probably making it clear I thought something was a waste of time and, well, what teacher is going to like that?!
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The thing about it all, too, is, I am actually a very rule-abiding person (I feel overwhelmingly guilty otherwise, so to avoid the guilt, I avoid the crime) and have never been in any real trouble in my entire life (and the trouble I have been in can be linked to my label as a "bad kid," not with anything I've actually done wrong). I've never even been grounded. I've never even been a fight. And yet, if one were to talk to the majority of people from my past, they'd probably get some story about how I am one of the craziest, scariest people they've ever met, and how they'd never want to make me angry, and how I'm probably knee deep in illegal acts by now. This all frustrates me to no end because I am and always have been a top student, with straight A's and a pretty impeccable record. I'm polite, well-mannered, I'm generally friendly and I'm a very accepting and understanding person.
My "bad kid" label has followed me from school to the work place, as well. I interned in a lab once, with another girl, and the other girl was often praised as being a "top intern" over me, when really, she didn't do much at all except stand around and ask stupid questions that I could've answered. She wasn't very bright, didn't really like hard work (it was always me requesting something to keep us busy, because I got stir crazy just sitting around), but she was always there to ask dumb questions, over and over again. So she was loved and praised and I was the "bad, lazy one". Drove me nuts.
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And I can accept that there probably is *something* people are responding to--it's just something superficial. Like clothing, or body language or the way someone relates to other people can give people an impression one way or the other. That's just why it's so frustrating when people don't really look at the record and say well wait, this person hasn't done anything. But people are really reluctant to think about these things, I think. It's like they don't want to really think about what they're reacting to. Meanwhile, a lot of times they've gotten exactly the opposite impression. Like the person they think is really trustworthy is the one telling lies about them, and the person who seems suspicious is the one defending them (that happened to me once). Really that's probably just because the person telling the lies has worked on appearing trustworthy--otherwise she wouldn't be so good at telling lies!
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And trust of unworthy people - oh yes, so often I see this happen. It is one of the most furstrating things ever.
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So, what did he/she say after they realized you hadn't missed any days?
My issue with labelling is kind of yours reversed. People always see me as this really brainy, studious person, and in classes they would always be surprised if I happened to not have my homework that day. Or if I did poorly on a test, things like that. I'm actually fairly laid back about my classes, but apparently I seem like the type of person that would cry if I got lower than a 90 on a math test (I rejoice if I get above a 65- gah, math). I'm not saying I don't take my classes seriously; I know what subjects need more work, and I do put the effort into it when I need to. I just don't spend hours and hours agonizing over every detail of an assignment, something people think I obviously do.
And you're always annoyed when you don't get the credit you deserve (rightly so), and I find myself getting annoyed for being labeled "high-strung". At least my boss thinks I'm dependable. I take work seriously.
Yeah, sorry for randomly commenting in your journal. I saw your comments about a Draco characterization thing.
-Gina
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Never admitted it. Just sort of wandered off checking. I'm sure he probably convinced himself there was something wrong with the record or something.
People always see me as this really brainy, studious person, and in classes they would always be surprised if I happened to not have my homework that day. Or if I did poorly on a test, things like that. I'm actually fairly laid back about my classes, but apparently I seem like the type of person that would cry if I got lower than a 90 on a math test (I rejoice if I get above a 65- gah, math).
Argh! Yes, that's exactly the thing--you just can't figure out why somebody would have this idea about you that seems so...not you.
I had a friend once in college, I remember, where these two girls kept joking about her being unable to tell a lie. I'm not sure why they thought this. I think they just had this idea of her being very goody-two-shoes or something. Maybe there was one time she'd be honest or something and they blew it up into a whole personality. So one day she said she was going to tell some lies and she bet after that they'd tell everybody she never told the truth. Sure enough it took about three tries of her telling a story and then revealing it wasn't true.
I wonder where the high-strung thing comes from. Like, what are you doing that reads as really nervous when you're not, if anything?
Yeah, sorry for randomly commenting in your journal. I saw your comments about a Draco characterization thing.
No problem--welcome!
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I have NO idea! That's what makes me so surprised people see me like that. Not everyone, but a lot of kids in my AP classes. I don't know if they're high strung and are just transposing their habits onto me because we happen to be in the same class or what, but I sort of feel like the kid that probably shouldn't be in honors classes, even though I get the grades, but because I feel as if I don't put in so much effort. Which is another thing entirely. I try, but I don't make school work my life. If I get a bad grade, oh well, it's not the end of my world. I'd probably forget about it by the next block. It makes me want to do something outrageous, just so people wouldn't think I've always get my nose buried in a book.
I hate boxes and labels and all that.
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It's a bitch, isn't it? Though sometimes the teachers for the 'normal' classes that they stick you in help. After I tooled around bored my freshman year of high school, my teacher that year got them to let me do honors English my sophomore and junior year and when they wouldn't let me take the college English course senior year I got put into the 'slightly more intelligent than average' class for the first semester and that teacher bitched until I got into the college course the next semester, because I was 'wasting my potential.'
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LOL! That's the thing I remember thinking was so crazy when they were not letting me in these things: okay, you're angry at me for getting A's in the class without having to do the busywork that's supposed to teach me how to be able to retain the material. Clearly I get the material without doing that. So wouldn't that make it seem like I should be in the higher level class? I understand punishing a kid for not doing their work or whatever, but it seemed like people were seriously missing the big picture there.
Though sometimes the teachers for the 'normal' classes that they stick you in help.
That's what happened to me when I was put in the lower class. I liked the teacher--he really specialized in kids that were sort of behind on their work or didn't work well in regular classes. So you could see why he was just annoyed at seeing somebody's time wasted the whole year in his class. I remember being so relieved when he called me in at the end of the year and said, "What on earth are you doing in this class?" I imagine a teacher who's focused on working with kids on one level and bringing them up would not appreciate having some kid stuck in there for punishment. I mean, I'm sure he could have taught me as well, but he couldn't teach a whole other class just for me.
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I still don't quite it.
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The interesting thing is, sometimes the *kids* know, you know? Like a kid might be more likely to notice, maybe if she got in trouble a lot when she wasn't doing anything, that you just didn't. Or like...I was reading this book about girls being aggressive and it said how sometimes teachers just couldn't believe anything bad would be done by girls who every girl in the class knew were really really mean.
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during grade school I was not only teased by the other students but a teacher actually announced in front of an entire class that I was the stupidest child she has ever tried to teach and that I would never amount to anything. In high school I was never even given the chance to try for the normal classes, and the remedial class I was in was never informed of class meetings or anything, we were never even told that we could get scholarship forms, and the material we were given was WAY behind everyone else. A friend who also went to school with me (she was in the normal classes) said that the students of the remedial class could probably make a case against the school, but I think I may be the only one who realizes just what a horrible injustice they did to us.
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no subject
Wow-what a great idea. I'm sure that made you shape right up and do better./sarcasm
A friend who also went to school with me (she was in the normal classes) said that the students of the remedial class could probably make a case against the school, but I think I may be the only one who realizes just what a horrible injustice they did to us.
Oh that is so frustrating--and what are the kids supposed to do about it? Sometimes I think, for instance, what would have happened if I hadn't made the effort to get into the classes I wanted. For instance, if I hadn't gotten into the eighth grade honors English class I wouldn't have had the teacher to whom I owe what grasp of grammar I have. You don't have that much time in high school, and there's no way to really get it back when you waste it.
Of course, sometimes it's just one bad teacher who wastes your time. My roommate always jokes about how she got no English education in high school because she was in the honor's class, and it so happened that the honor's teacher was terrible while the regular students had a German woman with much higher standards who was a better teacher. So they literally had much harder texts. There are so many books that if they come up she'll say, "Oh, I never read that. The regular class did."
It's really scary what can happen if a kid gets labeled the wrong way early on--or if there's no program to deal with kids on every level. Yikes. Your school sucks!>:-0
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no subject
However, this had its privileges, too - I wasn't exactly the best student in Maths, but due to my name as a good student, the teacher was inclined to give me better marks when compared to students who, admittedly, were exactly as good (or bad :)), but who talked in class or skipped it entirely.
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It's a shame when kids really believe this stuff, though, like if I had actually started to believe I was "better" than the kids who were treated more harshly, or they believed they were "worse" than I was at heart.
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But y'see, there's being a 'good kid', and then there's being the kid that the other 'good kids' can't stand. A lot of it has to do with the sort of, 'Oh Teacher, you've forgotten to set the prep' kind of behaviour -- the sort that gets you labelled as a brown-nose or Teacher's Pet or Hermione Granger-esque. But since that was how I'd always acted around adults, it never really occurred to me to act differently and I never thought that I was doing anything out of the ordinary. So I lived up to the 'good kid' label at every opportunity because that was how I'd learned to act around adults. I think the only time I ever used the label to my advantage was when I (deliberately) broke down crying in front of my school's principal in order to get my own way on a scheduling issue. And he caved almost immediately -- after all, I was a 'good kid' and refusing my request would've made him seem like an utter ogre.
So my 'good kid' label? Entirely deserved, because without knowing it I cultivated one for myself. And I probably could've got away with a lot if I'd wanted to. A lot of it has to do with sincerity and earnestness, and knowing how to sound sincere and earnest without sounding sycophantic. But I have to agree, it's all too often an arbitrary thing.
From:
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But anyway, I see just what you mean--in a way it might be easier for kids to deal with the kid labeled a brown nose. It's probably harder on her because she's looked down on for being that way, but at least she really is being good. It's a little different than, say, the girl who sucks up to teachers but is really breaking all the rules and doing what she wants.
I think there are a lot of kids who learn early on to identify themselves as "good" because it gets them the attention they want. It's weird because as a kid I used to feel much more comfortable around adults since I was almost an only child (my brother and sister were significantly older), but not in the same way. Although I related to them comfortably I didn't relate in the same way you did.
A lot of it has to do with sincerity and earnestness, and knowing how to sound sincere and earnest without sounding sycophantic. But I have to agree, it's all too often an arbitrary thing.
Definitely. And I think some kids just get it the way others do...like, when I think back on the way I related to teachers and things it was probably the way I relate to people now: I know it's important for them to understand that you get where they're coming from. So if I was late to class, say, I would know why it was an inconvenience for the teacher that I was late to class, and would respect that and apologize for it. But not every kid has that instinct, or is used to thinking of things from the teacher's pov. They might be seeing it more from their own pov and they were made late that morning because of their little brother or whatever. So they come in on the defensive and the teacher picks up on that and sees it as a challenge, etc. So even if the other student is the one with the better reason for being late I would probably come across as the one who made the effort and didn't do it on purpose.
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I completely agree with the idea of being able to let others know that you get where they're coming from, the question of POV. Even now I'm still in that mindset, where I relate to anyone older in terms of wanting to not be stepped on. Very, very strange. Thanks for posting these thoughts, again -- it's prompted me to do some rather introspective thinking.
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no subject
It's very frustrating on her part because she does enough things on her own to warrant punishment, she doesn't need to take on everyone else's too and it's frustrating from my point of view because no one ever seems to be able to answer the question, what happened 10 seconds before she was "caught".
It doesn't matter, you see. She takes the blame, her reputation gets worse, the adults worse suspicions are confirmed, the perpetrators avoid punishment of any kind (and if they play their cards right get petted an coddled) so EVERYONE'S happy.
Except they're not.
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From: (Anonymous)
Sorry about the HP bits...
I'm another one of those who give the opposite impressions of you, like "mariagoner" and "needtofindmysef" above.
I always had good rapport with my teachers, and was well liked by them. Made no trouble, quick on the uptake, eager for more. When I was I child, I just plain liked school. Didn't particularly do any homework, usually finished assignments at school, so if I forgot to do something (and believe me I did!) it seemed out of character and easy to forgive.
Later on, I've kept on being quick, kept on getting along with my teachers or superiors, kept on getting high value out of what I do, with minimal work, and maximum effect. Not particularly studious or serious... but I've found that if you pay attention, or seem to pay attention (for those days you can't be bothered), most anything goes.
Basically, it's about cocking your head a little to one side, and looking your teacher in the eyes with regular intervals, and in their general direction rest of the time. Seriously.
It also helps to take notes, ask questions and be outspoken, of course, but "listening" is the most important. If you appear to listen carefully and think about what's happening you can yawn, eat, half-sleep, roll your eyes, snicker, interrupt, it is all outweighed by listening.
Writing it down, this seems rather ... calculating, but it isn't really as bad as all that. I just realised very early in my teens that school was a game. There were unspoken, unacknowledged rules, and some of them were important to follow and some were not. I was a meta-student. :-)
My fellow students, however, did *not* realise this. The ones who didn't know me, would regularly shock me by saying something along the lines of we can't all work as hard as you, do you spend all your weekends doing homework etc. And they probably spent more *time* at their homework than I did. My god, maybe I am a Slytherin after all? I did get Draco in that personality test last week... with Snape as second, then Harry. ; ) Hmmm... have no ambition, though.
But I never knew how to answer them. They didn't believe that somebody could get good marks by being lazy. So I rolled my eyes and accepted the swot label, although mockingbird would have been more accurate.
I do sometimes feel that a more earnest approach to life is, well, more laudable, though. (Go 'Puffs, go!)
- Clara
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Re: Sorry about the HP bits...
LOL! I love it!
This really makes me wonder what I did look like in class, especially since this started when I was so young, you know? In fact, I remember in this report that my nursery school teacher wrote about me she said how one day they were doing flashcards where kids had to answer what the flashcard was a picture of or something. She said I never raised my hand and never answered a single question out loud, but that I mouthed the answer to every one to myself when she held up the card. So she was saying in the report that I got it all, but didn't say it out loud. I doubt teachers in grade school have the time to look at which kid knows the answer in her head, though, so maybe I quickly started to seem like a kid who just didn't know.
It's funny, though, how like you said people insist on coming up with a story to explain your success that they can live with, you know? Like you must spend all your time doing homework because otherwise that wouldn't be fair. Telling them the truth would probably just annoy them!
From: (Anonymous)
Re: Sorry about the HP bits...
Heh. Probably not. But how did you behave in class? You sound like a very very self-reliant child and student to me. Pleasing yourself instead of looking for instant public acknowledgment or praise.
I remember upper secondary school, and having long involved discussions in class about various subjects, and I always butted in and presented some view or other, and once I talked about that class with somebody who never spoke, never participated in the discussions and they said "but I don't have anything to say, I don't care about the subject, I don't have an opinion about this" and I thought "but this is supposed to be an oral subject, we're getting oral assessment, oral exams, and it doesn't *matter* if you present something you don't mean, just open your mouth!" They didn't, of course. Because they were honest and wanted to be sure to say only things they could vouch for. But the teacher didn't know that. To the teacher this person just sat there, week after week, totally silent.
I suppose you must have done something similar, in that you had a different standard for what constitutes paying attention or participating than what the teachers had, but how they could repeatedly dismiss your results like that sounds very unprofessional to me.
Have you read Agatha Christie's "Hallowe'n Party"? You sound a bit like Miranda. : )
Loved your comment about the busywork person in the original post, btw, that is such an easily recognised kind of person. Neat, neat, slow handwriting, painstakingly decorated pages, well-groomed, hard-working, and almost getting great marks, but not quite. The kind of person that would make a fantastic nurse.
- Clara
From:
no subject
I had a reputation as being a good kid, being very respectful and yet I was probably doing more to make fun of the teachers behind their backs during my school years than anybody. But they all liked me and if anyone ever were to confront a teacher and say, "He makes fun of you and makes you look like an idiot," the teacher would probably shake their head and laugh and say, "Oh, he's a character alright."
Even now at my job, I notice that I can get away with things that other people can't. People even beg me to ask questions to the boss on their behalf because they know and I know that if THEY ask the question, they might get in trouble....however, if the question comes out of my mouth, it will not seem offensive.
It has a lot to do with charm, and not to be egotistical, but I do have some of that.
From:
no subject
It reminds me of in the book A Bridge to Terebithia when this girl dies and the teacher is weeping over it to the protagonist, talking about what a sweet girl she was, and he wants to yell at the teacher that Leslie made fun of her all the time and was making a fool out of her and manipulating her.
From:
no subject
Honestly, I think it was just because I was quiet in high school and read a lot. Being seen reading for pleasure in high school seems to automatically equate you with being Scholarly and Responsible in the eyes of most people, even though I spent a great deal of my classes daydreaming and drawing in the margins of my notes as much as anyone else *laughs*. I still get that to this day; because I'm shy and not prone to idle chatter when I'm working, I'm labeled as Hard Working and Loyal in every job I hold, even if I'm really not any more so than anyone else. I think teachers and employers alike seem to equate those who chatter and socialize a lot with being less serious, for some reason, even if I've rarely found that to actually be the case. Hm.
My favourite incident involving this kind of misconception was at the end of my junior year in high school, when our English teacher was going through checking the vocabulary workbooks we were supposed to be filling out regularly for our weekly quizzes. I always aced these quizzes without doing a single exercise in that damn book, because I thought they were pointless and actually already knew most of the words from reading X-files fanfiction ;). And so my teacher went down the row, holding up the empty workbooks of the 'problem kids' who never did well as though to demonstrate a point that slacking=stupidity, and when he finally got to mine he announced to the class as he held up my workbook that the students who did well in class actually _did_ the work... and of course, the book was completely empty. He turned red, tossed the book back on my desk amid the laughter of the other students, and mumbled something about my being an exception. Hee.
From:
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A friend of mine, I remember, was very quiet and smart and read a lot, and she when people were voting on the rather odd things seniors were elected they gave her "most organized." She was the most disorganized person ever--so much so that when they went to take the photo for the yearbook they had to give her somebody else's notebook to pose with, since she only had one with dozens of papers sticking out. I think they just equated "organized" with "smart and quiet."
From:
no subject
at work you make it all look easy -- effortless ergo you're not working hard
as for school -- mystifying that your teachers couldn't see your intelligence and intellectual curiosity
wondering if your experience in dance and acting classes has been different
i've always been too erractic to be a really "good" student -- when i'm interested in something i can't stop and if i'm not interested i can't get started -- i was a good but unreliable student
otoh i'm very reliable at work -- my reliabilty is a result of my sense of responsibilty and desire to do a good job; i've thrived at my current job because they value the quantity and quality of the work i'm capable of producing even though i'm not a whole lot of fun to work with cause i'm so demanding and tempermental.
From:
no subject
Of course it's no surprise what kind of student you were--of course you would get interested and not be able to stop and not be able to start if you weren't interested.
I do have a better experience in dance and acting classes...I guess because you show interest a different way in those kinds of classes, somehow. Also those classes are elective so the very fact that I'm there means I'm interested. Then the teacher can see me doing things they tell me and things like that. That was one of the reasons I wanted to leave that old dance studio I was at--the teacher could barely keep her mind on the class so my mind started wandering too. There'd be the class, and then whatever the teacher was thinking about, and then whatever I was thinking about to block out what the teacher was thinking about...