Job or Prometheus?

[sistermagpie]

I was reading/having a conversation today about fandom that made me see a sort of pattern to the way I fall on certain fandom questions. In this case, I think I was talking about fanfics and writing IC or OOC and things like that. It wasn't that simple, but I wound up saying something about how I really don't think I read fics hoping they will be IC. That is, of course you appreciate being able to recognize the characters you like, etc. A certain level of IC-ness is expected. But in some vague way I like feeling like I'm reading X's fic, and listening to what X has to say, rather than going for any sort of simulation of canon. It's not that I read fic for meta, exactly, but I feel like the fics I like best probably give me the feeling that author just knows his/her take on canon well enough and is now telling a story, as opposed to somebody who's really trying to fit itself into canon or fill a hole. Because really I'm still getting what X is saying and not canon at all.

What's interesting about that is that often that's what fanfic will be described as, specifically when it's being defended to people who don't like it, you know? Like I've seen people reject slash or porn or weird or fanon-ized and say no, fanfic is a testament to the author because people are filling in those moments the author didn't write about, or it's speculating or whatever--it's just those fringe weirdoes who have the boys kissing. The rest of us are showing respect. And I realized that it's not just fanfic where I fall on this side (and ironically, whenever I hear people describing their own superior work that way my possibly unfair thought is that it sounds like their stuff sounds really boring). In fandom in general I tend to always lean towards whatever side of the issue says fandom is about fan reaction to the source material rather than the source material itself, if that makes sense.

It reminded me of something I seem to remember reading by Joseph Campbell where he was talking about different types of spiritualities, and he compared Middle Eastern religions to Western religions by comparing

Job vs. Prometheus.

In the story of Job, Job is tormented, after God and the devil make a bet. The devil hopes that if Job is tormented enough he'll reject God. Instead Job falls down and praises God anyway. Prometheus, by contrast (the way Campbell was laying it out), steals fire to give to man and is punished by being chained to a rock and having his entrails eaten every night. All he has to do to be freed is to apologize and submit to Zeus for doing this--and he won't do it. Looking at these two stories, I think Campbell was noting the different attitude towards the Deity. Once you make gods separate from humans, so that the two are interacting, you have to pick a side. Are you on God's side or humans' side? Job is on God's side--it doesn't matter what God does, you worship him because it is his due. Prometheus is on man's side--he's not going to submit to Zeus.

Okay, it's not exactly the same thing, but when I was thinking about fandom I thought hmmm, I'm definitely with Prometheus/the humanists on this, and if the author is God in fandom, I'm still with Prometheus.:-)

It's not just a case of wanting to say hey, the creator *isn't* God that it's blasphemous to criticize and not liking something or criticizing it isn't some terrible thing to do in fandom--it's a normal part of it. Fandom's really more about how often and how closely you look at the source material, not how pretty you think it is. A Snape and a Sirius fan whose views of canon are totally at odds and liable to erupt into flamewar at any moment are still closer in understanding to each other than they are to any random HP reader who thinks Snape is funny or it was a shame when Sirius died.

I do believe those things above about criticism not being a bad thing or making you not a fan, but for me the issue also often bleeds into the sense that claiming the creator is God is sometimes the first step to attempting to get closer to that God whatever way you can. Sort of, perhaps, the way the many very religious people will seem to blur the line between saying God is always right and saying whatever they say is right is what God says is right.

I can just think of fandoms I've been in and felt oversensitive to this sort of thing. For instance, I remember this one girl in XF fandom who lived for the spoilers she could get hold of and dole out to people. She loved speaking as some sort of voice of authority. She'd be the first to point to someone else as being a crazy stalker type if they said they loved David Duchovny, but also flew to California and bid a fifty dollars so that she could own a crumpled cigarette wrapper used on the show. I'm not trying to now turn around and say that *she* was a crazy stalker and the David Duchovny lover was superior, or that I'm superior to either, it's just that I myself couldn't see the appeal of doing that sort of thing. It just often seemed like she was making this big distinction between herself and other fans, in that she had maybe a foot over that line that separates the fans from the people involved in the movie or show.

But this is not to say that someone like that has a swelled head while I'm this wonderfully humble fan--the opposite is true, in fact. I think part of the reason I want to distance myself from creators etc. is that I don't like feeling like the relationship is unequal. Like, if I'm going to meet the star of a TV show I like, I'm probably not going to want to do it as fan to actor. I consider myself an equal, so would want to meet them as such.

Really, it maybe comes down to that same Prometheus thing. I want to be God too. Only rather than doing that by identifying someone else as God of fandom and trying to put myself in line with his/her thinking or get closer to him/her so that I can speak for them or give myself authority through them, I want to just declare myself a God as a fan.

So to get back to fanfic writers, for instance, I don't think of people being good because they're in character, nor do I think of people as being good because their version of characters are just as good as/better than/a fabulous spin on the author's. I think I just want to take the canon as understood to be the basis for everything and not call much attention to it. It's like canon is the paint, the raw materials we know everyone is working with. So rather than say, "Your Hermione is so in character!" I'd think more, "I like what you've done with Hermione," and say what it says to me meta-wise about canon and how it works within the story. If I'm reading crackfic or whatever then I probably assume that whatever cliché is being used already says something about canon (Veela!Draco, Sickly!Frodo, etc.).

I mean, so many fandom discussions boil down to the idea of knowing your place, don't they? Like whenever somebody gets into a twist because it's so wanky somebody said they preferred whatever fanfic to canon—well, does that really matter? Can you really force yourself to enjoy one thing over another? Does that really mean you've overstepped your place? Can't you acknowledge the author/creator's unique contribution of original work without doing that? Fanfic and Original Fic are just totally different animals. If I enjoyed reading a certain fic to a certain episode or book in a canon, should that matter? Not really to me, because hey, I'm a god. If I enjoyed it more, I must have a perfectly divine reason for it.;-)



p.s. I finally saw one of the clips of my friend and me on AMC. If you watch that channel, sometimes they do these fast montages of "Movie People" talking about different movies. I think they've used several different clips of us at different times, talking about different movies, but this is the first time I've seen one even though we taped it a long time ago. At first I totally didn't realize it was us. I was looking at myself and I seemed like some other person.

Anyway, it was a good clip, part of a montage where people are talking about horror movies. In our bit I guess I'm going through the Rules of Slasher movies and how important they are in life because they tell you how to survive psycho killer attacks. I'm telling them to my friend, who is less familiar with them. So the clip is:

Me: ...the virgin always survives.... See, you wouldn't have known that.

Her: No, I wouldn't have known that!

(to the camera)

I wouldn't have survived either!

What sells it is that she delivers those lines with totally clueless sincerity and genuine alarm. She's totally not acting.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

There's probably something to be written--and I know for a while people were doing polls about this and such--about how your taste in fanfic changes the more you read. You just so often start off liking anything for the novelty or just because you're seeing sort of what you want, and then you start getting pickier and pickier. I think that's what happens to most people, that you get the the point where you lose your need to read fanfic and only read fanfics because you want to read that one, you know? So you'll have a certain author you'll read if you want, but you have no desire to read fanfic in general. Then you're going to get all the more annoyed by all the little things you might have glossed over before.

As in, I don't consider it good commentary because it's just -irrelevant- as far as I'm concerned; stale and pointless and yes, I can insult fandom a little more if I tried :D

Heh--so then does that mean that fandom in itself is irrelevent? I mean, because plenty of just stuff that gets said about characters in fandom is also wrong, and relevent only in that it's telling you what these characters make people think, you know? Does fandom always lead from solitude into solitude? I mean, like you start with a person who just likes something, then they seek out other people who also like it and that makes it social, but ultimately you learn all you want from those other people and go back into solitude? Or just don't like the canon anymore?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

so then does that mean that fandom in itself is irrelevent?
Hahah, trust you to come up with a better insult than me ;)) ...But yeah, insofar as it's a sheer wish-fulfillment reaction rather than some meaningful dialogue/commentary on the text, I would say it's irrelevant to anyone but the person whose opinion it is-- unless by accident the other person also shares that opinion and they can bond over that. I suppose for a popular preference/opinion, the audience is just that much wider. Doesn't make it relevant, precisely, just... um, well-received, maybe.

I don't mean to tar -all- HP fandom and other fandoms with this brush, naturally-- I mean, I've read enough well-done fanfics and brilliant meta essays and seen enough spon-on vids to feel that fandom can produce brilliant, relevant and innovative stuff. I think I just differentiate between stuff that's got real fannish significance/appeal and stuff that I consider to be... well, wanky, you know, completely personal rather than fannish in focus. There isn't that vital link to the text at the forefront but rather a vital link to the person's own fantasy space-- which is fine and dandy, but irrelevant to -me- as a fan of something -other- than their fantasy space.

Honestly speaking, of course, for -me-, fandom does lead back into solitude, yeah, once I've gotten what I came for, but I have to say for most other fans I see it leads back to another fandom, because fannishness is a part of our nature more than any one fandom. I say 'our' because yeah, it's mine too, it's just that my socialness in general isn't necessarily tied to my fannishness, and also the level of my involvement always depends on whether I can respect what the people around me are doing. And while I understand the need for wish-fulfillment and indulge in a lot of it myself, in some ways, at the same time I take writing v. seriously and can't abide by fanfic being -only- that.

It's true what you say about the slow progression of annoyance, though, ahahah :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think I just differentiate between stuff that's got real fannish significance/appeal and stuff that I consider to be... well, wanky, you know, completely personal rather than fannish in focus. There isn't that vital link to the text at the forefront but rather a vital link to the person's own fantasy space-- which is fine and dandy, but irrelevant to -me- as a fan of something -other- than their fantasy space.

But isn't it hard to sometimes tell the difference? I mean, that's why I don't tend to take as much notice when somebody is just into their own thing that I am when somebody wants to make their own thing canon. Like, by arguing that whatever fanon cliche they like is actually canon either because they've decided it is or because it's not the dominant fanon one. I mean, like, on a different note, there are plenty of things that you've said you need to see in a fic to make it worthwhile and about canon and whatever, that on the other hand I'm glad that I'm not seeing because it doesn't seem like canon to me at all. It's not like it's something I don't think should be written, because there's nothing that really falls under that category, but I either wouldn't want to read it or wouldn't want it given the label of IC or canonical or whatever, you know what I mean? It's like everytime one person says something is IC there's someone else saying, "WTF?" Sometimes it's more obvious who's wrong, but not always.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It'd be easier to answer you if I knew which weird think I called IC, heh, though I realize I have lots of off-color and just plain idiosyncratic preferences with H/D-- though I do read other pairings I'm probably more normal with (er...). If you mean the rage!Draco thing as one example, most of that-- and a lot of my pet-peeves-- was a total backlash against complete wet-noodle who laid back and took it!Draco. And so it is that I only know what I want to see when I see its direct opposite being very stupid.

With H/D, at least, I'm a lot more certain of the things that -don't- make sense -because- I see them all the time. It's likely enough I don't have any better ideas, but at the same time, the things I do see are just so ridiculous I can't stand it. It's not that the writers are claiming it's canon (though sometimes they are), but that no one bothers to try harder, to do something more real, to face the issues, etc. It was never that I wanted anyone to face the issues -my- way. It was always that I wanted the fics to acknowledge the ugly spots, the dirty spots, all the difficulties. So basically, it's when things just fall into place-- when things are too easy and the characters too pliant and ready and sexy-- that's when I know I'm reading about someone's fantasy space more than canon-derived characters.

Like, I think it's a misunderstanding if you think I've ever told people what to write to be IC or some other reason-- though I admit I've come rather close to telling them what -not- to write, at least as much, because there's just so much of it and it annoys me and I rant. But. The main thing I think is 'wrong', basically, is white-washing and glorifying both circumstances and characters-- that's what makes it purely wank, OOC, whatever. At the same time, I also hate to see blant projection of out of place gender roles onto characters that don't remotely fit them-- and that's the whole feminization phenomenon. There's also purely wish-fulfillment things which do enter into a supposedly canon-based fic-- that is, one that starts after 5th year, say-- that ruin it for me, like Harry waking up one day to realize he was always gay and Draco was always hot, or even suddenly, boom, looking at him in a new light just because he's dancing in a night-club with Pansy or something. Whatever.

Bottom line, I think if you pay attention, these sorts of things-- unrealistic swerves not just from canon but from -reality-, basically-- do stand out. And yeah, I'm fully ready to admit, and always have, that what really gets me isn't OOCness per se but blatant wish-fullfilment fantasy masquerading as a 'serious'-- not pure parody or smut-- fic.

I mean, obviously the writer isn't directly telling you worshipful!Harry is IC and canon and all that, but at the same there's no link to 'reality' there, and it's just accepted-- and it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't -everywhere-. All I really want isn't some formulaic fic where Draco is beaten up by Harry and then fall happily/angstily in love but rather an honest exploration of issues without any sudden moments of-- TADA! And here you thought this was a -problem-! Problem, what problem! ...If that makes sense.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

And yet, it's not like -I'm- there telling fandom what the problems are. I find that there's mostly something of a consensus, among any but the most hardcore faithful H/D shippers who really do think it's enough to plop them together and poof! Actually, the people who -give up- on reading/writing H/D often do it for similar reasons, and -those- are the reasons-- like hownovel said (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/281431.html?thread=3627351#t3627351), mostly. I don't think I'm pushing my own agenda alone with this, y'know? The things that make me go WTF?! aren't even types of characterizations so much as their displacement in context-- as in, all the rest of the characters and/or situations don't -work- or make sense with this one, like-- smooth-as-ice!Draco makes Harry be an idiot, for instance. So then when the fic goes on and has it all make sense-- when it still really doesn't-- I always notice because it's not just about OOCness, it's like -all of reality- sort of... collapses. And it's worse because a lot of times, in retrospect, only -Ron- notices -.-;;

To show you what I mean-- have you ever read Durendal's classic How Harry Potter Got His Groove Back series...? That's a great example of how freaky sudden H/D is, where Harry wakes up and thinks Draco's hawt and Draco's like, WTF?? Did someone switch universes on me when I wasn't looking?! Heh. That's what I mean, anyway.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! Yeah, I get what you mean there. With H/D--well, really, not just with H/D but with every pairing--getting them together is always going to be the challenge, but people who are reading and writing the pairing often want them to be together so they're more interested in getting to the sex than working through exactly how, realistically, that could happen. And they are, of course, perfectly within their rights to do that since it's not like it matters either way to the outside world. I don't have as many problems with future fics being that way--I've got no problem believing that Harry and Draco meeting at 25 would have a totally different dynamic because that's been my reality anyway. I mean, not that you can just erase the past, but you can't have them be adults and starting from that place in canon.

I think sometimes something I wind up reacting against too, though, is that you've got the fanon versions of the boys (usually Draco, since he's the one with the sort of Fanon that Ate Fandom alter ego), but then people do sort of feel like anything that's not that is canon. I'm not talking about you here--I don't mean just saying "this isn't right," but saying, "this isn't right, so that is right."

Like, I think after OotP I felt that sometimes I was just completely out of sync with a lot of peoples' takes on the character. Probably we all feel that way, really.:-) And in HBP I was both surprised with where the character went and totally pleased at being far more validated than I thought I'd be. Really, I think I'm probably in the same boat as you in feeling like people just often don't deal with the stuff in canon--I'm just not as bothered by it since, uh, I just don't read fanfic much anymore. ::blush::

What often happens, I think is that a lot of fanfic is about scratching itches, and so people have a certain itch they want to scratch with a fic. That just probably rarely involves all the work it would take to present both characters with all their complexity and honestly exploring how they would get to where you want them to go. So they just give Harry a monster in his pants for Draco instead of Ginny and have at it: you're attracted, go.

I mean, I'm trying to think of situations where I can imagine these two characters "realistically" (whatever that means, since it's not going to happen in canon) and I can see something almost weird happening. That is, instinctively when I think of them at the point of canon they are now, it seems like everything is so up in the air I feel like there's a lot more possiblities than there were when they were both at school. You'd still have to sell whatever you came up with, but it's different.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

What often happens, I think is that a lot of fanfic is about scratching itches, and so people have a certain itch they want to scratch with a fic. That just probably rarely involves all the work it would take to present both characters with all their complexity and honestly exploring how they would get to where you want them to go.

See, see, that's my obsession, my cross to bear in fandom, ahahah, right there-- I often say that I feel that's detrimental if it's totally the dominant paradigm the way it is because... well, I love/d the possibilities inherent in the pairing and want to see the beautiful things that could happen if people went all out with the complexity and the honest exploration, you know? That was my itch I wanted to scratch from the very beginning, and perhaps you can imagine just how frustrating fandom eventually became after I disillusioned myself of much possibility of seeing that explored. And I myself-- am lazy and hopeless with longfics, ahahah. Though I have several unfinished attempts that -still- don't delve into the issues enough. And then, at some point I started to mistrust the very -idea- of writing merely to scratch itches because on a deeper level, I just can't say it's good -writing-, y'know... or... well, I should say 'great' rather than good, because it may very well be serviceable.

I do see your point about the ultimate irrelevance of any achievement here in the outside world, but... to me, its importance is purely -because- it would be a labor of love. To me, it's so natural-- if you love the pairing, why -wouldn't- you go all out with the realism and the honesty most of all-- the honesty of seeing things as truly as possible, you know. I think that approach is an outgrowth of love-- like, when you love something, you can't help but want to see it at its most -true-. And the realization that yeah, people are just scratching an itch-- it strikes at the heart of my very attachment to both H/D and fandom for this reason.

It's sort of like the people who actually attach the 'sorry, this is OOC and fluffy but I don't care' note to their fanfics, only this time implicitly-- with that sort of attitude, I can't help but feel cheated. And yeah, of course their issues and dynamic would change after 10 years or whatever, but, I mean, since I like them -now-, why would I be okay with or want them to change that much...? That's why I was happy and validated with HBP exploring fanon-projection territory, but at the same time less inspired to write fic, because well, -I- wanted to explore that myself, ahahah. -.-;; I was satisfied but also deflated, heh. I do like my impossible challenges a little too much, maybe. :>

I think I'm a lot more tolerant and happy with the supremacy of the fanon-god creator in fandoms/pairings where there already is -some- base of realism or naturalness in the characters' dynamic. Like, it's all well and good to say we've 'got the powah', collectively, but if no one's really using it plausibly and it's something like a Maenad frenzy of greed and lust-- then the original Jealous God starts to look more and more appealing, because at least there was more order... or something... ^^;;;