Job or Prometheus?

[sistermagpie]

I was reading/having a conversation today about fandom that made me see a sort of pattern to the way I fall on certain fandom questions. In this case, I think I was talking about fanfics and writing IC or OOC and things like that. It wasn't that simple, but I wound up saying something about how I really don't think I read fics hoping they will be IC. That is, of course you appreciate being able to recognize the characters you like, etc. A certain level of IC-ness is expected. But in some vague way I like feeling like I'm reading X's fic, and listening to what X has to say, rather than going for any sort of simulation of canon. It's not that I read fic for meta, exactly, but I feel like the fics I like best probably give me the feeling that author just knows his/her take on canon well enough and is now telling a story, as opposed to somebody who's really trying to fit itself into canon or fill a hole. Because really I'm still getting what X is saying and not canon at all.

What's interesting about that is that often that's what fanfic will be described as, specifically when it's being defended to people who don't like it, you know? Like I've seen people reject slash or porn or weird or fanon-ized and say no, fanfic is a testament to the author because people are filling in those moments the author didn't write about, or it's speculating or whatever--it's just those fringe weirdoes who have the boys kissing. The rest of us are showing respect. And I realized that it's not just fanfic where I fall on this side (and ironically, whenever I hear people describing their own superior work that way my possibly unfair thought is that it sounds like their stuff sounds really boring). In fandom in general I tend to always lean towards whatever side of the issue says fandom is about fan reaction to the source material rather than the source material itself, if that makes sense.

It reminded me of something I seem to remember reading by Joseph Campbell where he was talking about different types of spiritualities, and he compared Middle Eastern religions to Western religions by comparing

Job vs. Prometheus.

In the story of Job, Job is tormented, after God and the devil make a bet. The devil hopes that if Job is tormented enough he'll reject God. Instead Job falls down and praises God anyway. Prometheus, by contrast (the way Campbell was laying it out), steals fire to give to man and is punished by being chained to a rock and having his entrails eaten every night. All he has to do to be freed is to apologize and submit to Zeus for doing this--and he won't do it. Looking at these two stories, I think Campbell was noting the different attitude towards the Deity. Once you make gods separate from humans, so that the two are interacting, you have to pick a side. Are you on God's side or humans' side? Job is on God's side--it doesn't matter what God does, you worship him because it is his due. Prometheus is on man's side--he's not going to submit to Zeus.

Okay, it's not exactly the same thing, but when I was thinking about fandom I thought hmmm, I'm definitely with Prometheus/the humanists on this, and if the author is God in fandom, I'm still with Prometheus.:-)

It's not just a case of wanting to say hey, the creator *isn't* God that it's blasphemous to criticize and not liking something or criticizing it isn't some terrible thing to do in fandom--it's a normal part of it. Fandom's really more about how often and how closely you look at the source material, not how pretty you think it is. A Snape and a Sirius fan whose views of canon are totally at odds and liable to erupt into flamewar at any moment are still closer in understanding to each other than they are to any random HP reader who thinks Snape is funny or it was a shame when Sirius died.

I do believe those things above about criticism not being a bad thing or making you not a fan, but for me the issue also often bleeds into the sense that claiming the creator is God is sometimes the first step to attempting to get closer to that God whatever way you can. Sort of, perhaps, the way the many very religious people will seem to blur the line between saying God is always right and saying whatever they say is right is what God says is right.

I can just think of fandoms I've been in and felt oversensitive to this sort of thing. For instance, I remember this one girl in XF fandom who lived for the spoilers she could get hold of and dole out to people. She loved speaking as some sort of voice of authority. She'd be the first to point to someone else as being a crazy stalker type if they said they loved David Duchovny, but also flew to California and bid a fifty dollars so that she could own a crumpled cigarette wrapper used on the show. I'm not trying to now turn around and say that *she* was a crazy stalker and the David Duchovny lover was superior, or that I'm superior to either, it's just that I myself couldn't see the appeal of doing that sort of thing. It just often seemed like she was making this big distinction between herself and other fans, in that she had maybe a foot over that line that separates the fans from the people involved in the movie or show.

But this is not to say that someone like that has a swelled head while I'm this wonderfully humble fan--the opposite is true, in fact. I think part of the reason I want to distance myself from creators etc. is that I don't like feeling like the relationship is unequal. Like, if I'm going to meet the star of a TV show I like, I'm probably not going to want to do it as fan to actor. I consider myself an equal, so would want to meet them as such.

Really, it maybe comes down to that same Prometheus thing. I want to be God too. Only rather than doing that by identifying someone else as God of fandom and trying to put myself in line with his/her thinking or get closer to him/her so that I can speak for them or give myself authority through them, I want to just declare myself a God as a fan.

So to get back to fanfic writers, for instance, I don't think of people being good because they're in character, nor do I think of people as being good because their version of characters are just as good as/better than/a fabulous spin on the author's. I think I just want to take the canon as understood to be the basis for everything and not call much attention to it. It's like canon is the paint, the raw materials we know everyone is working with. So rather than say, "Your Hermione is so in character!" I'd think more, "I like what you've done with Hermione," and say what it says to me meta-wise about canon and how it works within the story. If I'm reading crackfic or whatever then I probably assume that whatever cliché is being used already says something about canon (Veela!Draco, Sickly!Frodo, etc.).

I mean, so many fandom discussions boil down to the idea of knowing your place, don't they? Like whenever somebody gets into a twist because it's so wanky somebody said they preferred whatever fanfic to canon—well, does that really matter? Can you really force yourself to enjoy one thing over another? Does that really mean you've overstepped your place? Can't you acknowledge the author/creator's unique contribution of original work without doing that? Fanfic and Original Fic are just totally different animals. If I enjoyed reading a certain fic to a certain episode or book in a canon, should that matter? Not really to me, because hey, I'm a god. If I enjoyed it more, I must have a perfectly divine reason for it.;-)



p.s. I finally saw one of the clips of my friend and me on AMC. If you watch that channel, sometimes they do these fast montages of "Movie People" talking about different movies. I think they've used several different clips of us at different times, talking about different movies, but this is the first time I've seen one even though we taped it a long time ago. At first I totally didn't realize it was us. I was looking at myself and I seemed like some other person.

Anyway, it was a good clip, part of a montage where people are talking about horror movies. In our bit I guess I'm going through the Rules of Slasher movies and how important they are in life because they tell you how to survive psycho killer attacks. I'm telling them to my friend, who is less familiar with them. So the clip is:

Me: ...the virgin always survives.... See, you wouldn't have known that.

Her: No, I wouldn't have known that!

(to the camera)

I wouldn't have survived either!

What sells it is that she delivers those lines with totally clueless sincerity and genuine alarm. She's totally not acting.

Comments

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting about Job and Prometheus. I'm definitely with Prometheus on this one, both in life and in fandom. Because really, "canon" is what's in the pages of the books. That's not to say that some interpretations aren't more logical than others, because they most definitely are. But once you start extrapolating, that's your mind at work and not the author's.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes--I know it can drive people crazy because it *seems* like canon when you're just reading, but once you jump into fandom and start arguing it you find out other people read/saw totally different things!

[skelkins.livejournal.com]

Which is precisely what I'm here for!

See, that's the thing that always puzzles me about those people who seem to feel exceptionally threatened or upset by the fact that other people see different things in the text that they saw. I always wonder what they're hoping to get out of fandom canon discussions. I mean, I'm not trying to say that they should all just STFU and die, or anything like that - hey, we all have our ways of having fun, right? - but it's just that I honestly have a hard time imagining what it is that they were hoping to get out of the discussion in the first place. Why would someone go out of their way to seek out other people's responses, if not to learn about, well, other people's responses? After all, I already know what I think about the text!

As for Prometheus vs. Job, though, perhaps there is also a mode of interacting with God-the-Author that is a bit more like Jacob and the angel? You don't submit to God. You exist in a struggle with the divine; you wrestle it. But if you win that fight, then instead of getting tied to a rock and your liver eaten for all eternity, instead you get a reward.

Although really, I think that metaphor might work better applied to the Text than to the Text's Author. :-)

When it comes to fanfic, well, I don't read much of it anymore, but back when I did, I had extremely unusual and unpopular tastes. I'm rarely very interested in fic that deals with the canon characters at all. I prefer reading about OCs, and about canon characters so very minor that they might as well be OCs. I really only want to read about the canons if they're quite out of character - as they often are in the kind of fanon commentary fics you mentioned - or if the work is blatantly and deliberately AU. So obviously boasts of how very IC someone's treatment of the canon characters is doesn't read much like a recommendation to me, either!

'Course, this also means that nearly all debates over "what makes good fanfic" leave me feeling somewhat cold. I usually just sort of skim over them, as it seems clear to me that what interests most of fandom about fic and what interests me about it aren't often all that well-aligned.

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

I honestly have a hard time imagining what it is that they were hoping to get out of the discussion in the first place. Why would someone go out of their way to seek out other people's responses, if not to learn about, well, other people's responses?

Speaking as someone who's had the experience of feeling upset by other people's interpretations of canon, I may be able to answer your question, at least partially.

One of the major reasons why I go looking for discussion of something I like is because I want to deepen my own understanding of it. I tend to think best when I'm talking or writing; the act of composing my thoughts in a post or essay often helps my ideas click into place and expand. I also want to know what other people have seen that I haven't, but that's a double-edged sword. What I really hope for, deep down, is to find things other people have seen that I can take into my own view of canon and deepen it. I'm generally willing to take the risk of hearing negative things in order to find these insights--but it can be tough when I'm forced to see things in a way I don't like.

A lot depends on the tone and context of the discussion. Most of the time ideas are presented in a way that leaves me free to take or leave them. What upsets me, though, is when I feel placed in a position where I either have to refute the distasteful idea or accept it. This can happen especially in the debate-style atmosphere of a mailing list or message board, although sometimes fanfiction can have the same effect. I don't want to feel forced to adopt a reading I don't like, because it would diminish my pleasure in canon.

I'll mention an example of something that happened to me in another fandom. Someone posted on a message board about parallels between two characters--let's call them A and B, for the sake of convenience. I liked the idea and posted in support of it. Now, B is my favorite character in that canon. But then a third poster hopped onto the thread and posted a long essay stating that we other two were wrong, that there could be no comparison between A and B because A was superior to B in every conceivable way. He then gave a lengthy series of reasons for A's superiority.

I was flabbergasted and upset. I was put on the spot, having to defend my opinions. If I couldn't do that, it seemed, then I had to admit that I was wrong and the other person was right. I wasn't able at the time to come up with anything better than "Um--um--A is not either better!" And that, obviously, wasn't much of a comeback. It was such an upsetting experience that I stopped hanging around that board.

The question has gnawed at me, off and on, for over two years now. I've found reasons to laugh off some of the stuff in the essay, but some of it I'm still struggling with. It's colored my relationship with both characters, and not in a happy way. I now somewhat resent A, whom I always used to like. I also feel less secure than I used to about preferring B. Until I can either come up with a coherent alternate view which I can defend or else find a way to be okay with the idea that A really is better, it will keep disturbing me.

(Hello, by the way! I read all the HP essays on your website not too long ago. I didn't agree with everything, but none of it traumatized me!)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, I know exactly the type of thing you're talking about. I think the key to that specific situation is the "this character is superior," thing. That's not analysis, imo, that's just setting up one character over another, and it happens all the time. It drives me crazy in HP fandom as well. Far too much time seems to be spent on explaining how whatever character you like is "human" for whatever flaws they have, while any explanation of another character's actions don't matter because they are bad because of X, Y and Z.

Recently, too, I've been reading a discussion on a mailing list that's driving me crazy because it seems bent on twisting the meaning of a scene just to make sure one character is totally blameless and the other person is completely at fault. What drives me crazy in this case isn't that any character involved is a favorite, but that it's all about twisting canon and ranking characters rather than dealing with the scene that's there. There's a lot of jumping around to make sure the one character always comes off blameless, and there's no point to that. And yet part of why it irritates me is because this kind of debating style does seem to make me have to take this sort of thing more seriously than I should, if you know what I mean.

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

I think the key to that specific situation is the "this character is superior," thing.

I can imagine it happening about other types of questions, though. To take an example from Elkins' essays, the Point Award scene at the end of PS/SS. I had read that book something like 5 times and seen the movie 3 or 4 times when I came across her interpretation (that it was a biased and unfair move on Dumbledore's part), and I can honestly say that I had never seen it that way before. I can also honestly say that I don't want to see it that way. Of course, now it's going to be in the back of my mind the next time I reread the book. Maybe I'll find a concrete reason for why I've never seen it as unfair; maybe I won't. If I don't find that reason, then I hope I'll be able to keep from feeling like I have to adopt it against my will--and I think I'll probably succeed at that. But I can do that mental balancing act largely because I encountered the idea in a non-confrontational way, I think. If I'd been getting into the thick of mailing list discussion at the time, I might very well have met that theory in a "Refute it or accept it" context.

[skelkins.livejournal.com]

I always found that frustrating as well, and it seems to tie into a lot of the other dynamics that seem to arise from a highly competitive and debate-driven approach to canon discussion. It's as if people think that they can't discuss a scene, or a character's behavior, or whatever, unless they first pick a side.

It seems to me to tie into a lot of other issues revolving around issues of factionalism and partisanship. It's like the "How can you say that X did something wrong, when Y did something even worse!" argument, which seems so prevalent both in fandom and in politics, and which never makes very much sense to me in either context.

I haven't been following HPfGU lately, but back in my day there, it was really popular for people to argue, for example, things like "Hagrid can't be a bad teacher because Snape is a bad teacher!" I always found that incredibly frustrating, because to my mind it was self-evidently illogical, and yet it seemed to make perfect sense to those who were arguing it. Arguments like that just make my head hurt, honestly. I feel I can't even engage with them.

[skelkins.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response! That does make a great deal of sense to me, and it really helps. Thank you.

I also want to know what other people have seen that I haven't, but that's a double-edged sword. What I really hope for, deep down, is to find things other people have seen that I can take into my own view of canon and deepen it.

::nods::

I think that what most people are looking for in other people's reader responses is something that will deepen their own reading, something that will add depth and resonance, and meaning. I'm sure that nearly everyone has had that experience of reading some fandom discussion or another and thinking it "irrelevant" or boring or nonsensical - basically, feeling that it adds nothing to ones appreciation of the source material.

In my experience, one all-too-frequent problem in fandom discussions comes up when people differ over what they find meaningful or enhancing or significant. But I guess there's another problem as well, a slightly different one, the one you've so clearly described, which is what happens when an opinion or argument does seem to have meaning to you, it does add something to your own experience of the text, but what it adds is unfortunately not at all something that you wanted.

A lot depends on the tone and context of the discussion. Most of the time ideas are presented in a way that leaves me free to take or leave them. What upsets me, though, is when I feel placed in a position where I either have to refute the distasteful idea or accept it.

Oh, I know exactly what you mean! Sometimes debate can be fun, but it is not the only type of discourse that exists, and I find myself getting very irritated and bored with it after a while. It can be frustrating if you want to have a conversation, while everyone else is far more interested in having a debate. And also, as you point out, it does tend to create this weirdly competitive atmosphere where if you don't care to argue or refute a point, the other person seems to have "won," and you therefore feel compelled (either by yourself or by other people on the boards) to accept their reading as your own when - well, really! Why should you? That's a dynamic that can really get under my skin as well, as does the corresponding dynamic, where everyone is supposed to "take a side" on whatever the big fandom debate of the moment is, and if what you want to do instead is to talk about where the readings might actually be coming from, rather than which of them you think is "correct," then people look at you as if you've grown a second head. That's my own personal "drives me nuts" one, myself. :-)

I don't want to feel forced to adopt a reading I don't like, because it would diminish my pleasure in canon.

That's fair enough. I fear that I can sometimes be a bit insensitive to that dynamic, perhaps because I myself find it quite easy to appreciate a nasty, horrible, no-good reading that I don't like on a purely intellectual level, while simultaneously not feeling particularly compelled to adopt it myself. So it's all too easy for me to miss how easily a spirited attempt to communicate a reading can cross over a line somewhere and come to feel to others like an attempt to insist on it - almost like a conversion attempt.

(Hello, nice to meet you! I'm very glad that you found nothing on the site traumatizing. :-D)

[kryptyd.livejournal.com]

What sells it is that she delivers those lines with totally clueless sincerity and genuine alarm. She's totally not acting.
That's so cute!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It really was.:-)

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

I agree with your post.

Fandom seems to be split between some fans treating JKR like a writing deity and others viewing her writing in a more critical fashion. I myself question her writing ability. It isn't that I don't find HP inventive or alluring. I do, or I wouldn't be in fandom. But I do feel that she has let important, dramatic opportunities slip by because they don't fit her original outline.

In regards to fanfic, I feel writers should be able to explore their interpretation of JKR's world and not be held to the OOC rack.

Afterall, a reader brings his or her own interpretation to the books they read. It's not up to other readers or even the author to correct him or her about "wrong" conclusions. If enough people come to the wrong conclusion about a book, then that is a problem in the writing not the readers.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes--and I don't want to make it into like a big hierarchy where "my" kind of fan is better (though of course we all instinctively think it's those other people who are crazy). It's just there's this complex relationship between creator and fan and the canon and the fanon, and since I can't do anything about canon I guess I want to give fanon free rein.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

The thing about fanfic and the fandom is that if anyone actually wrote like JKR does, they'd be ridiculed out of the fandom in a heartbeat. She's not a great writer. She's a fun and imaginitive writer and her books (with one or two exceptions) are a delight to read. She's been known to change characters to make them fit into some new role or situation *cough*ginnysue*cough and it's taken for the most part, in stride by the fandom. And so it should be.
But I'd love, absolutely love to see what would happen if she herself posted a "drabble" a missing chapter or something straight out of canon on any given archives. We all know what would happen, don't we? It's written in the stars.

These people:The rest of us are showing respect. And I realized that it's not just fanfic where I fall on this side (and ironically, whenever I hear people describing their own superior work that way my possibly unfair thought is that it sounds like their stuff sounds really boring. (I had to stop reading here for a bit and have a good laugh, BTW) would nail her to the wall.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

@#%(# HTML!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes, exactly. I mean, one big reason is that usually the skills involved in successful Original fiction are just not the same stuff fanfic often deals in. There's plenty of ways in which JKR, for all her own flaws as a writer, leaves these guys in the dust, including the ones claiming to write with respect. The credit for the creation is all hers--and at least she can just write what she wants without pretending she's trying to channel the superior mind of someone else.

And yet on the other hand, oh yes she would probably have trouble if she tried to write fanfic of her own work. I remember after OotP I thought the one good thing about Ginny was that no one could ever again say it was badfic to say, "So and so came back different in fifth year..."

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I'm fascinated to see whether she'll succeed as an author should she try publishing adult novels (or under a name other than her own, come to think of it.) But I wouldn't necessarily bank on it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's hard for me to imagine her writing adult novels. Not that she couldn't surprise me but I don't know. She doesn't strike me as, say, CS Lewis writing for kids. It seems more like this is her normal mode of story.

[melata-fic.livejournal.com]

*nods* Some people can write for kids, but she probably isn't. Not consciously, anyway.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

Haha, yeah I'm a Prometheus, too, in that I wouldn't volontarily submit myself to anyone, be them God or not. Nor do I accept meeting other people as anything other than equals. But I sort of have to disagree with the IC/OOC-issue. Well, not "disagree" so much as saying that I think the expressions are valid, and that yeah, it does matter to me. I don't think we can get an objective opinion on what "In Character" is, but we can have a million different subjective takes on it, and these subjective takes can be more or less backed up by Canon. Of course, I think my take on IC is the correct one, and I suppose everyone else thinks that about theirs, too, but I can argue with someone who has a very different take on it, and I can either win or lose the argument, depending on how well I do it. It's also often necessary for me, at least these days when I don't read much fic and am very picky about what I do read, that I percieve the important characters to be at least reasonably IC, and if the author's take on the characters are very similar to mine, I'm likely to enjoy it even more.

Like I've seen people reject slash or porn or weird or fanon-ized and say no, fanfic is a testament to the author because people are filling in those moments the author didn't write about, or it's speculating or whatever--it's just those fringe weirdoes who have the boys kissing. The rest of us are showing respect. And I realized that it's not just fanfic where I fall on this side (and ironically, whenever I hear people describing their own superior work that way my possibly unfair thought is that it sounds like their stuff sounds really boring)

I often enjoy "missing moments"-fics, or speculation (isn't all fanfic a sort of speculation anyway? Not speculation in "I think this will happen in Canon", but speculation in "what if THIS happened? What then?"), if it's about characters I'm interested in, I have to say. But that depends on what mood I'm in. I mean it varies what sort of fic I'm interested in, depending on where I am in my fandom-state. I'll often begin my fanfic-reading experience with "not too far out there"-fics, and then go farther and farther away from it. Like with HP, I began with fics very close to Rowling's style, either R/Hr, or from Draco's POV (but still close to JKR's style), and then continued with H/D slash, then got tired of standard slash, and continued with experimental and contraversial slash, then got tired of slash altogether, and continued with controversial het, and then went pretty much back to the beginning, reading only fics that speculated about the fifth book (yes, this was all before OotP). So, yeah, it depends. But the author isn't giving us the missing moments anyway, so I'm often interested in what other people may have thought happened, in them. :-)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd really be lying if I said I didn't look for IC as much as the next person--I think it's impossible to not look for it to some extent, you know? But then I was thinking that there are certain versions of OOC that I am just fine with, so maybe it wasn't that I was looking for something literally like canon so much as just dealing with the aspects of the character that I liked. For instance, I can think of times where I've seen, say, two versions of Draco, and neither of them are literally like he is in canon, but one takes him in one direction and the other takes him another direction. But I'll like the first and not the second, even if the first is generally considered more fanon and the second is all edge and non-fanon and so called canonical.

I often enjoy "missing moments"-fics, or speculation (isn't all fanfic a sort of speculation anyway? Not speculation in "I think this will happen in Canon", but speculation in "what if THIS happened? What then?"), if it's about characters I'm interested in, I have to say.

Oh yes, me too. It's not that I can't like a fic that's about this at all. It's just when people present themselves as sort of Saint Canon Fan who is just trying to write exactly what the author would have written if he wrote that scene--it just seems so bland and pointless. There's a reason the author didn't write the scene, you know? But that doesn't mean that there aren't *great* fanfics based on missing moments and what if's. But in those cases I'm probably reading the fanfic because I want to hear what that author has to say about that moment etc., not because I think it's missing from canon and I want the respectful fanfic author to fill me in. It's more just how the authors were presenting themselves, like there was no personal passion in the fic, just a sort of bland care for the author.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

But then I was thinking that there are certain versions of OOC that I am just fine with, so maybe it wasn't that I was looking for something literally like canon so much as just dealing with the aspects of the character that I liked. For instance, I can think of times where I've seen, say, two versions of Draco, and neither of them are literally like he is in canon, but one takes him in one direction and the other takes him another direction.

Oh yeah, now I get what you mean. And I agree, one of my favourite Hermione-fic has been accused of being "OOC", and while I can see the point, and have bit of criticism for the beginning of the fic, I still think it's IC enough for me, just because the fic explored parts of the characters I want to see explored, and dynamics in a way I was interesting in seeing.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Oooh, interesting post. (Have I mentioned how I'm *stalking you* yet? I can now, you know. I can!)
I think you're right to say that a lot of fic is being interested in what the writer has to say, but again it is important that they've studied canon. If only to find the gaps in which they can fit. I don't know. I don't think JK Rowling is perfect (far from it) but I don't agree either with the 'she made a universe WHICH I CAN HANDLE IT BETTER THAN SHE CAN' attitude.
Like you say, it's a different beast, and yet comparisons are inevitable. I suppose all one can do is keep them to a minimum.
(Oh, how mature I sound, and how very girlishly I shall shriek at ferret!Draco soon enough.)

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Which I can handle better than she can. Editorial intern cannot make correct posts at work. Clearly obscure rebellion.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oooh, interesting post. (Have I mentioned how I'm *stalking you* yet? I can now, you know. I can!)

Was that you under my window this morning? I'm sorry I dumped eggs on you. Had I but known it was you!:-)

I think you're right to say that a lot of fic is being interested in what the writer has to say, but again it is important that they've studied canon. If only to find the gaps in which they can fit. I don't know. I don't think JK Rowling is perfect (far from it) but I don't agree either with the 'she made a universe WHICH I CAN HANDLE IT BETTER THAN SHE CAN' attitude.
Like you say, it's a different beast, and yet comparisons are inevitable. I suppose all one can do is keep them to a minimum.

Yeah, it's just funny that you can't get away from the comparisons, really. It's like it always has to come back to one or the other, either I'm doing it better, or she is, and if she's doing it better than she must be perfect, and if I'm doing this part better she must suck.

Really, we all just suck in our own ways.:-D

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

It's all right, eggs make my hair shiny. :) And soon my shiny hair and your shiny brain will converge to have the Great RL Squee Over HBP. I have spoken!

We do all suck in our different ways. So true! I mean, I can wax scathing over the monsters in chest romantic writing, but anyone ask me to come up with a original and magical sport and my only response would be '... Look. A BIRDY. Keep looking so I can run away!'

[guza.livejournal.com]

Me: ...the virgin always survives.... See, you wouldn't have known that.

Her: (to camera) No, I wouldn't have known that!

(she turns back to me)

(she turns back to the camera)

I wouldn't have survived either!

Hee hee hee! :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's excellent!

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

My taste in fanfic runs towards stories that are plot-driven and reasonably IC. I expect any writer (pro or fan) to do enough research to ground their setting well enough that I can get on with the plot and story without stumbling over the details. In terms of fanfic, to me that means understanding your canon source material well enough to make your story contextually believeable. It doesn't mean copying the source material so rigidly that your story has no life of its own. It means though, that your story 'fits' enough that your readers don't get distracted by all of your OOC details.

As an example, take the Weasleys. In canon it's been established that the Weasley parents are complete dolts when it comes to understanding the Muggle world. Arthur Weasley can't even understand Muggle money when the amount is printed right on it. Stupid? Yeah, but that's canon. If you write a story in which Arthur Weasley whips out his Visa card to buy Molly a new I-Pod from the Apple website, and then updates his LJ ... I'm gonna get thrown right out of your story because thse actions are too out of character for my taste. On the other hand, write a story in which Arthur Weasley takes a long lunch at work one day (cause honestly, who who even notice that he's gone?) and sneaks into Muggle London and rashly buys some "arcane" piece of electronics because he wants to stay in touch with Muggle culture or something... that story I could buy. It seems reasonably IC enough to me that I'd want to see where the author was going. Gonna be a comedy? A tragedy? A parody? X-rated? Who knows.

But this is just my taste. There are just as many readers who truly don't give a damn if any of the details or characterisations are accurate so long as they like the story.

But you know, ultimately all that really matters is whether or not the author told her story well. A well-written, but wildly OOC fanfic is still a well-written story. A poor-written, but canon-perfect story is still poorly-written.

As for Job or Prometheus... So far as their stories go, I'm with Prometheus. Job is a fool but letting God torture the crap out of him... but for all we know, Prometheus may now be in utter despair at what mankind has done with the fire that he stole for them.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've learned to sort of just be aware of the things that are going to throw me out of the story, and to know that they might not throw someone else out of the story. Often if a character is so OOC it's ridiculous they don't have any character at all anyway. At that point the author is practically making up original characters, and plenty of fanfic authors are just bad at that.

As for Job or Prometheus... So far as their stories go, I'm with Prometheus. Job is a fool but letting God torture the crap out of him... but for all we know, Prometheus may now be in utter despair at what mankind has done with the fire that he stole for them.


Oh, too true.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

The problem as I see it, really, is that basically people often don't -have- that base level of believability or integration with canon that makes the rest of the commentary stuff plausible. It's why I definitely didn't start off being obsessed with ICness or anything, but little by little, I kept on coming across so much stuff I just -couldn't- buy that I started fixating on the basic things I would -expect- from any decent piece of fanfiction, because -so- much of it was crap, basically.

It's not really a -choice- between filling-in and fantasy in the wilds of the majority of fic produced, because if it was, I'd happily skip off, forgetting about canon and writing/reading AUs about elves, schools in America, magical swords and various weirdness. I really -live- for the weirdness. I -hate-, loathe and despise those stupid H/D HBP fill-ins and I hate the idea of writing the 7th book myself or whatever. But... well... when so many people's writing/characterization basically insult my intelligence... what are you gonna do--?? So I wind up focusing on the basics of, 'this is how you write palatable fanfiction that serves as -fan- as well as -fiction-, everyone'. And yeah, good characterization is right up there in making it worthwhile-- doesn't matter if it's filling in blanks or flying off on its own tangent, as long as it's -believable- for the characters to act that way in the first place.

Am I an odd person, because I sympathize with and like both Prometheus and Job? Heh. I think it's because they have an unbreakable tenacity of faith in common-- just that one believes in himself and the other in Him who is greater than himself. That is the basic conflict at the heart of Judeo-Christianity, in a meta sense, I believe-- that whole issue of submission to God is possibly the greatest running theme. And personally, I side with Lucifer on an individual level (as I believe Lucifer is the direct equivalent to Prometheus in this case), but at the same time I can't help but respect the other choice-- I mean, I think it's complementary rather than opposite and should ideally exist in union similar to the union between Good and Evil-- meaning that ultimately, I believe that Lucifer loves god and Job needs/wants to rebel.

Er, though all that was a tangent because of my recent obsession with the Lucifer comic, basically, ahahah. I get your point about fanfic being separate-but-equal, and... I think I just look for ICness -and- a sense of uniqueness, like the person did something interesting with the character, because I'm just difficult like dat. I don't tend to write/read fanfic for things I admire and consider somehow complete, yeah, but at the same time merely not admiring JKR's books-- though I really enjoy them and love Harry, blahblah-- this doesn't affect how I feel about characterization in fanfic in general, which is an end onto itself for me, not as a means of homage to canon but as a means of... I dunno... being a good fic, y'know?

It's like you said, what's the point if you can't recognize the character, and I honestly can't recognize the dominant fanon version of most characters, not just Draco. As in, I don't consider it good commentary because it's just -irrelevant- as far as I'm concerned; stale and pointless and yes, I can insult fandom a little more if I tried :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

There's probably something to be written--and I know for a while people were doing polls about this and such--about how your taste in fanfic changes the more you read. You just so often start off liking anything for the novelty or just because you're seeing sort of what you want, and then you start getting pickier and pickier. I think that's what happens to most people, that you get the the point where you lose your need to read fanfic and only read fanfics because you want to read that one, you know? So you'll have a certain author you'll read if you want, but you have no desire to read fanfic in general. Then you're going to get all the more annoyed by all the little things you might have glossed over before.

As in, I don't consider it good commentary because it's just -irrelevant- as far as I'm concerned; stale and pointless and yes, I can insult fandom a little more if I tried :D

Heh--so then does that mean that fandom in itself is irrelevent? I mean, because plenty of just stuff that gets said about characters in fandom is also wrong, and relevent only in that it's telling you what these characters make people think, you know? Does fandom always lead from solitude into solitude? I mean, like you start with a person who just likes something, then they seek out other people who also like it and that makes it social, but ultimately you learn all you want from those other people and go back into solitude? Or just don't like the canon anymore?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

so then does that mean that fandom in itself is irrelevent?
Hahah, trust you to come up with a better insult than me ;)) ...But yeah, insofar as it's a sheer wish-fulfillment reaction rather than some meaningful dialogue/commentary on the text, I would say it's irrelevant to anyone but the person whose opinion it is-- unless by accident the other person also shares that opinion and they can bond over that. I suppose for a popular preference/opinion, the audience is just that much wider. Doesn't make it relevant, precisely, just... um, well-received, maybe.

I don't mean to tar -all- HP fandom and other fandoms with this brush, naturally-- I mean, I've read enough well-done fanfics and brilliant meta essays and seen enough spon-on vids to feel that fandom can produce brilliant, relevant and innovative stuff. I think I just differentiate between stuff that's got real fannish significance/appeal and stuff that I consider to be... well, wanky, you know, completely personal rather than fannish in focus. There isn't that vital link to the text at the forefront but rather a vital link to the person's own fantasy space-- which is fine and dandy, but irrelevant to -me- as a fan of something -other- than their fantasy space.

Honestly speaking, of course, for -me-, fandom does lead back into solitude, yeah, once I've gotten what I came for, but I have to say for most other fans I see it leads back to another fandom, because fannishness is a part of our nature more than any one fandom. I say 'our' because yeah, it's mine too, it's just that my socialness in general isn't necessarily tied to my fannishness, and also the level of my involvement always depends on whether I can respect what the people around me are doing. And while I understand the need for wish-fulfillment and indulge in a lot of it myself, in some ways, at the same time I take writing v. seriously and can't abide by fanfic being -only- that.

It's true what you say about the slow progression of annoyance, though, ahahah :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think I just differentiate between stuff that's got real fannish significance/appeal and stuff that I consider to be... well, wanky, you know, completely personal rather than fannish in focus. There isn't that vital link to the text at the forefront but rather a vital link to the person's own fantasy space-- which is fine and dandy, but irrelevant to -me- as a fan of something -other- than their fantasy space.

But isn't it hard to sometimes tell the difference? I mean, that's why I don't tend to take as much notice when somebody is just into their own thing that I am when somebody wants to make their own thing canon. Like, by arguing that whatever fanon cliche they like is actually canon either because they've decided it is or because it's not the dominant fanon one. I mean, like, on a different note, there are plenty of things that you've said you need to see in a fic to make it worthwhile and about canon and whatever, that on the other hand I'm glad that I'm not seeing because it doesn't seem like canon to me at all. It's not like it's something I don't think should be written, because there's nothing that really falls under that category, but I either wouldn't want to read it or wouldn't want it given the label of IC or canonical or whatever, you know what I mean? It's like everytime one person says something is IC there's someone else saying, "WTF?" Sometimes it's more obvious who's wrong, but not always.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It'd be easier to answer you if I knew which weird think I called IC, heh, though I realize I have lots of off-color and just plain idiosyncratic preferences with H/D-- though I do read other pairings I'm probably more normal with (er...). If you mean the rage!Draco thing as one example, most of that-- and a lot of my pet-peeves-- was a total backlash against complete wet-noodle who laid back and took it!Draco. And so it is that I only know what I want to see when I see its direct opposite being very stupid.

With H/D, at least, I'm a lot more certain of the things that -don't- make sense -because- I see them all the time. It's likely enough I don't have any better ideas, but at the same time, the things I do see are just so ridiculous I can't stand it. It's not that the writers are claiming it's canon (though sometimes they are), but that no one bothers to try harder, to do something more real, to face the issues, etc. It was never that I wanted anyone to face the issues -my- way. It was always that I wanted the fics to acknowledge the ugly spots, the dirty spots, all the difficulties. So basically, it's when things just fall into place-- when things are too easy and the characters too pliant and ready and sexy-- that's when I know I'm reading about someone's fantasy space more than canon-derived characters.

Like, I think it's a misunderstanding if you think I've ever told people what to write to be IC or some other reason-- though I admit I've come rather close to telling them what -not- to write, at least as much, because there's just so much of it and it annoys me and I rant. But. The main thing I think is 'wrong', basically, is white-washing and glorifying both circumstances and characters-- that's what makes it purely wank, OOC, whatever. At the same time, I also hate to see blant projection of out of place gender roles onto characters that don't remotely fit them-- and that's the whole feminization phenomenon. There's also purely wish-fulfillment things which do enter into a supposedly canon-based fic-- that is, one that starts after 5th year, say-- that ruin it for me, like Harry waking up one day to realize he was always gay and Draco was always hot, or even suddenly, boom, looking at him in a new light just because he's dancing in a night-club with Pansy or something. Whatever.

Bottom line, I think if you pay attention, these sorts of things-- unrealistic swerves not just from canon but from -reality-, basically-- do stand out. And yeah, I'm fully ready to admit, and always have, that what really gets me isn't OOCness per se but blatant wish-fullfilment fantasy masquerading as a 'serious'-- not pure parody or smut-- fic.

I mean, obviously the writer isn't directly telling you worshipful!Harry is IC and canon and all that, but at the same there's no link to 'reality' there, and it's just accepted-- and it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't -everywhere-. All I really want isn't some formulaic fic where Draco is beaten up by Harry and then fall happily/angstily in love but rather an honest exploration of issues without any sudden moments of-- TADA! And here you thought this was a -problem-! Problem, what problem! ...If that makes sense.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

And yet, it's not like -I'm- there telling fandom what the problems are. I find that there's mostly something of a consensus, among any but the most hardcore faithful H/D shippers who really do think it's enough to plop them together and poof! Actually, the people who -give up- on reading/writing H/D often do it for similar reasons, and -those- are the reasons-- like hownovel said (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/281431.html?thread=3627351#t3627351), mostly. I don't think I'm pushing my own agenda alone with this, y'know? The things that make me go WTF?! aren't even types of characterizations so much as their displacement in context-- as in, all the rest of the characters and/or situations don't -work- or make sense with this one, like-- smooth-as-ice!Draco makes Harry be an idiot, for instance. So then when the fic goes on and has it all make sense-- when it still really doesn't-- I always notice because it's not just about OOCness, it's like -all of reality- sort of... collapses. And it's worse because a lot of times, in retrospect, only -Ron- notices -.-;;

To show you what I mean-- have you ever read Durendal's classic How Harry Potter Got His Groove Back series...? That's a great example of how freaky sudden H/D is, where Harry wakes up and thinks Draco's hawt and Draco's like, WTF?? Did someone switch universes on me when I wasn't looking?! Heh. That's what I mean, anyway.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! Yeah, I get what you mean there. With H/D--well, really, not just with H/D but with every pairing--getting them together is always going to be the challenge, but people who are reading and writing the pairing often want them to be together so they're more interested in getting to the sex than working through exactly how, realistically, that could happen. And they are, of course, perfectly within their rights to do that since it's not like it matters either way to the outside world. I don't have as many problems with future fics being that way--I've got no problem believing that Harry and Draco meeting at 25 would have a totally different dynamic because that's been my reality anyway. I mean, not that you can just erase the past, but you can't have them be adults and starting from that place in canon.

I think sometimes something I wind up reacting against too, though, is that you've got the fanon versions of the boys (usually Draco, since he's the one with the sort of Fanon that Ate Fandom alter ego), but then people do sort of feel like anything that's not that is canon. I'm not talking about you here--I don't mean just saying "this isn't right," but saying, "this isn't right, so that is right."

Like, I think after OotP I felt that sometimes I was just completely out of sync with a lot of peoples' takes on the character. Probably we all feel that way, really.:-) And in HBP I was both surprised with where the character went and totally pleased at being far more validated than I thought I'd be. Really, I think I'm probably in the same boat as you in feeling like people just often don't deal with the stuff in canon--I'm just not as bothered by it since, uh, I just don't read fanfic much anymore. ::blush::

What often happens, I think is that a lot of fanfic is about scratching itches, and so people have a certain itch they want to scratch with a fic. That just probably rarely involves all the work it would take to present both characters with all their complexity and honestly exploring how they would get to where you want them to go. So they just give Harry a monster in his pants for Draco instead of Ginny and have at it: you're attracted, go.

I mean, I'm trying to think of situations where I can imagine these two characters "realistically" (whatever that means, since it's not going to happen in canon) and I can see something almost weird happening. That is, instinctively when I think of them at the point of canon they are now, it seems like everything is so up in the air I feel like there's a lot more possiblities than there were when they were both at school. You'd still have to sell whatever you came up with, but it's different.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

What often happens, I think is that a lot of fanfic is about scratching itches, and so people have a certain itch they want to scratch with a fic. That just probably rarely involves all the work it would take to present both characters with all their complexity and honestly exploring how they would get to where you want them to go.

See, see, that's my obsession, my cross to bear in fandom, ahahah, right there-- I often say that I feel that's detrimental if it's totally the dominant paradigm the way it is because... well, I love/d the possibilities inherent in the pairing and want to see the beautiful things that could happen if people went all out with the complexity and the honest exploration, you know? That was my itch I wanted to scratch from the very beginning, and perhaps you can imagine just how frustrating fandom eventually became after I disillusioned myself of much possibility of seeing that explored. And I myself-- am lazy and hopeless with longfics, ahahah. Though I have several unfinished attempts that -still- don't delve into the issues enough. And then, at some point I started to mistrust the very -idea- of writing merely to scratch itches because on a deeper level, I just can't say it's good -writing-, y'know... or... well, I should say 'great' rather than good, because it may very well be serviceable.

I do see your point about the ultimate irrelevance of any achievement here in the outside world, but... to me, its importance is purely -because- it would be a labor of love. To me, it's so natural-- if you love the pairing, why -wouldn't- you go all out with the realism and the honesty most of all-- the honesty of seeing things as truly as possible, you know. I think that approach is an outgrowth of love-- like, when you love something, you can't help but want to see it at its most -true-. And the realization that yeah, people are just scratching an itch-- it strikes at the heart of my very attachment to both H/D and fandom for this reason.

It's sort of like the people who actually attach the 'sorry, this is OOC and fluffy but I don't care' note to their fanfics, only this time implicitly-- with that sort of attitude, I can't help but feel cheated. And yeah, of course their issues and dynamic would change after 10 years or whatever, but, I mean, since I like them -now-, why would I be okay with or want them to change that much...? That's why I was happy and validated with HBP exploring fanon-projection territory, but at the same time less inspired to write fic, because well, -I- wanted to explore that myself, ahahah. -.-;; I was satisfied but also deflated, heh. I do like my impossible challenges a little too much, maybe. :>

I think I'm a lot more tolerant and happy with the supremacy of the fanon-god creator in fandoms/pairings where there already is -some- base of realism or naturalness in the characters' dynamic. Like, it's all well and good to say we've 'got the powah', collectively, but if no one's really using it plausibly and it's something like a Maenad frenzy of greed and lust-- then the original Jealous God starts to look more and more appealing, because at least there was more order... or something... ^^;;;

[paceus.livejournal.com]

This is a fascinating post. I've thought about it quite recently when discussing the difference between canonical and AU fanfiction, and - their stuff sounds really boring - I came to the same conclusion. There are exceptions, of course.

You're not really talking about how JKR writes here, but I wanted to tell someone about this: I came across a post (http://www.livejournal.com/users/soaringdragon42/341612.html) in which a person complains that their (NaNoWriMo) characters have gone out of control, obsessing about each other so that the poster might end up writing porn without actual plot development. They say:

I feel like I'm writing a fan-fic for my own story WHICH I HAVEN'T EVEN WRITTEN YET! >_<

But hey, if Rowling can do it, why can't I?

I was amused and intrigued about the comment of Rowling doing that, but it wasn't explored in comments. The post was metaquoted (http://www.livejournal.com/community/metaquotes/4227063.html), but instead of pondering about Rowling, everyone started to talk about how their characters are out of line too.

Is this a common estimate of Rowling's work? The concept of orig fic being fanfiction instead of canon is new to me, but I like it. Apparently the poster means Rowling went overboard with romance; elsewhere, the OOCness of her characters has been discussed. On the other hand, I don't know if orig fic being accused of reading like fanfiction is a very good way to address continuity and consistency problems of characters and mood - as if the division between pro and fanfic would also indicate how good the writing is; it would account for altering the universe but only negatively.

However, since fanfiction often is about romance, calling the books that could also mean a sort of indulgence in something, disrupting the balance of the situation the book or the series started with or just delicate sensibilities. I recall at least one series of books which ended in such a horrible joy and happiness for all creatures everywhere that it didn't seem realistic anymore, either in this or the books' universe.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, it's funny that people keep saying that about Rowling but I don't see it at all. I think there are things that can apply to original fic that some people don't--like, I think of course an original author could write a character OOC, hypothetically, and I think OCs can be Mary Sues. But with Rowling I thought a lot of it was just that she wound up using cliches and things that were recognizable from fanfic.

Because when it comes to what the person is describing here, that the characters obsess over each other and it turns into PWP...that's not anything like what Rowling does. You can't really do that in Original fic. If anything her characters don't really obsess over each other, they just run through their paces to keep the plot moving. And sometimes that in itself is maybe what people mean, that she just makes the characters do things that don't seem organic or aren't explained as much, or just says something like "okay, this character is different now" without really selling it.

[ickle-c.livejournal.com]

Here from hogwarts_today.

This rang true for me too - I really enjoy authors who decide what a character is like and go with it. I don't have anything to add; just commenting to show that I read and appreciated your post.

Not that, as a god, you needed my approval...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Even gods need appreciation sometime.:-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Unrelated to your main topic but: Can you upload that clip you were in? You can cover your eyes with mosaic or something :-P

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! That would be funny. I don't know how to do that. I just have it on a regular VHS tape.

[(Anonymous)]

"...that author just knows his/her take on canon well enough and is now telling a story"

You need to know a rule to be able to flaunt it successfully! :)


When I started to read HP fanfiction, I had no real expectation of style or ICness or plausible scenarios etc, and no fixed idea of what was good or bad fanfiction. I wanted to read about characters I liked, doing things, together, that they did not get to do within the restrictions set by the books. Not missing scenes, but alternate scenes. And as a shipper, I was more interested in character interaction than an expansion to JKR's world.

I look back with horror to a story I once bookmarked, in one of my first weeks in fandom, as "Imitates JKR's writing style well". I still know which (well-known, heh) fic this is, and I was impressed by it then, in the context of ff.net, thought it worthy of canon, or something. So yeah, I've never ever wanted to read this story again, but at the time I made the bookmark I was considering whether JKR's writing style was something fanficcers should want to emulate if writing about her characters. *cringes*

Then I spent ages trying to find anything to read that wasn't about females called Harry or Draco, and made getting your character's gender into the Holy Grail of IC Fanfic Writing, never mind their other traits.


Now, I don't know anymore, I don't have an agenda. I don't have problems finding well-written fics. Whether those I like the most are IC, I don't know. But Draco as he has developed in my mind and my ideas of his hows and whys, is a separate yardstick to how I see Draco as he appears in canon. They're not the same, and I think I probably confuse them from time to time. Both are my interpretations, but, yeah, one's a little more objective than the other. ;)

The fics in which I love his character, are usually those who confirm or expand "my" Draco. "Highly IC"/"canon" Draco gets respect, but not necessarily love. He can sneak his way into becoming part of "my" Draco by way of meta, though, as "canon" Draco is a meta character.


I don't know whether I can truly reach that point you speak of where:

rather than say, "Your Hermione is so in character!" I'd think more, "I like what you've done with Hermione," and say what it says to me meta-wise about canon and how it works within the story.

It so easy to get that backwards. To be quick and faulty and jump from "me likes/dislikes" to "must be oh so IC/OCC". Monty Python's "May not know much about art, but I know what I like" Pope to Michelangelo all over again.



Fandom's really more about how often and how closely you look at the source material, not how pretty you think it is. A Snape and a Sirius fan whose views of canon are totally at odds and liable to erupt into flamewar at any moment are still closer in understanding to each other than they are to any random HP reader who thinks Snape is funny or it was a shame when Sirius died.

You are the Goddess of meta. :D


- Clara

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The fics in which I love his character, are usually those who confirm or expand "my" Draco. "Highly IC"/"canon" Draco gets respect, but not necessarily love. He can sneak his way into becoming part of "my" Draco by way of meta, though, as "canon" Draco is a meta character.

Ooh! Yes, that's what I have to just admit to myself what I'm going for. I mean, it would be great if I could attain this incredible objectivity, but I probably can't. It comes down to characters pressing certain buttons for me, and as long as you're hitting some of them I'm getting something out of it. That's why I can be reading two fanfics that are equally silly and yet one will affect me and the other will just annoy me. Or why some little problems throw me out of a story rather than others. It's just funny that it's so impossible to really get it right. I was, I think, especially pleased with the way that HBP went a totally different way with Draco, even while also having a lot of things I recognized from fanfics. The fanfics I *liked* too! Like for so long it seemed like all these H/D cliches were considered bad, and people who wrote the other end of the spectrum were therefore seen as being far more correct. But it turned out that really, it was some of the most mundane, "traditional" H/D ideas that were "right," even if canon was ultimately different.

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

Very interesting essay. I feel like I'd like to comment, but I'm not quite sure where I stand on the issue, myself. My first reaction is to say that I must be a "Job" (and how very dull you make us sound, too; I feel like I should apologize). I want characters to be as close to canon as possible, both when I read and when I write. I adore gap-fillers. I have little interest in AUs. I stick mostly to canon pairings when reading romantic fic, and am not into slash. Sometimes I think I just don't actually like fanfiction--I like selected fanfics instead.

But then, even within the fanfics that I consider to be highly in-character, there's still a range. My range of tolerance may be narrower than some people's, but it's there. And I think I'm able to vary more freely in metadiscussion than fanfiction. Fanfiction is hard for me in a way because it seems somehow more real and binding than meta.

In addition to characterization, it's also very important for me for the world to be right. Things like...oh, for instance, a Lord of the Rings fanfic that assumes Elves keep human slaves would make me stop reading.

At the base level, I am in it for the canon. Once something strays too far from canon, it stops being what I'm looking for. Of course, fanfic writers can't help making the world and characters their own, to a certain extent. I know I can't. But there's a line somewhere, where it stops feeling to me like two different writers looking at the same fictional world, and instead turns into a different world which might be sort of like the original but isn't quite the same. I'm not sure I can articulate where that line is, but a story loses value for me if it crosses it. I'm like, "Well, that doesn't give me any food for thought about the Potterverse, really, because that story wasn't the Potterverse. It was some world that the author wanted the Potterverse to be."

I know I'm probably a strange one in this. Most people I know who are into fanfiction say that they'll read anything (within certain parameters) as long as it's well-written. It was quite a revelation when I realized that I don't feel that way. I had just read a fanfic (not HP) that was well-constructed and had technically good writing, but the main character simply wasn't who he was pretending to be. They shared physical appearance and some background details, but they weren't the same person. I'd probably have enjoyed it as an original work, but as a fanfic I begrudged the time I'd spent on it. The good writing wasn't enough to satisfy. Given the choice, I honestly would read a less technically-perfect but canonical story over a fantastically-written story that strays too far away from what I'm in it for--the original work.

But then, a lot also depends on how attached I am to the canon. Not every canon I love (or even like) is a "fanfic" canon for me. Sometimes I don't like it enough to seek out fanfic; sometimes I like it too much and it seems like fanfic would ruin it, or it seems complete in itself and fanfiction is unnecessary. Jane Austen falls into the latter category, for example. Despite the fact that I've been on an Austen discussion listserv for about ten years now, I've never been tempted to get involved with the facfiction side of things.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Very interesting essay. I feel like I'd like to comment, but I'm not quite sure where I stand on the issue, myself. My first reaction is to say that I must be a "Job" (and how very dull you make us sound, too; I feel like I should apologize).

LOL! Yes, I did but I should apologize for that. I realized it made one way of dealing with fanfic superior and it isn't. I think maybe it's related to what you were saying about not liking fanfic. It's not that being very canon based means that your opinion of fanfic matters any less than another person, but just that fanfic, by definition, is not canon so it's not as much of a focus. The person who's writing against canon sort of needs it more.

But then, even within the fanfics that I consider to be highly in-character, there's still a range. My range of tolerance may be narrower than some people's, but it's there. And I think I'm able to vary more freely in metadiscussion than fanfiction. Fanfiction is hard for me in a way because it seems somehow more real and binding than meta.

I know exactly what you mean--when it's written down, it's real, even if you know it's not. I've been really upset by fanfics for just that reason. Maybe also because I can't argue with it because it's not meta. That can sometimes be very frustrating with fanfic, because you're reading something that does seem to be saying something meta about that text, only it's in a story, so you're not supposed to say, "But your take on this relationship is wrong."

That might again be why my op comes across so weighted towards the "Prometheus" side, because too often the people who *do* take on fanfic and say "this cliche is wrong" or whatever wind up mixing the two and telling people to write things I don't think are canon either.

I know I'm probably a strange one in this. Most people I know who are into fanfiction say that they'll read anything (within certain parameters) as long as it's well-written.

You know, I don't think that's strange at all. I couldn't ever claim to be someone who reads anything as long as it's well-written. It's more like I read things that a) reflect the canon the way I see it; b)take liberties with canon that I enjoy, maybe because they're emphasizing a note that I see and like that just isn't dominant in the text, or because it reflects some way I'd like canon to be; or c) fall into some neutral territory where I'm not bothered by the liberties taken. I sometimes feel very--threatened is too strong a word, but it's sort of like that--when people criticize people for not reading everything that's well-written because I know that certain things will upset me to have read them (probably especially if they're well-written).

Fanfic, to me, is not like original writing. In some ways it is, but not others. There's a reason we have warnings and pairings and things up front, because while fanfic readers are a ready-made audience for fanfic, they get to search out what they want. That's the trade-off.

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

I pointed a friend of mine to this article and she made a comment which nicely expressed part of what I was trying to say above: "For some, the 'recipe' the author used is so appealing to the reader/fanficcer that he or she simply wants something that is as close to that as they can get. It isn't that they are slaves to the canon, but that the canon is what they liked and so they want more of it (or the nearest facsimile)."

I think that's the reason I generally want the world and the characters to match canon as much as possible. It's also a reason why fanon generally irks me, even when it's something relatively harmless. I'd always rather read faficcer X's direct take on canon than fanficcer X's take on fanficcer Y's version of canon.

I think maybe it's related to what you were saying about not liking fanfic

I think my narrow range might also have to do with the way I came into fanfiction. I started out in metadiscussion, then read a ton of MiSTings and wrote a few myself before moving into actual serious fanfic reading and writing.

Of course, even though I wrote yesterday that my tolerance was so limited, I just realized with a chuckle that the last story I looked over was an AU crossover with incest--all things which are generally deal-breakers for me! It was by an author I knew, which makes a difference, and I didn't read it deeply, just skimmed. But I did come away thinking "Hmm, there were a couple of interesting ideas there" even if all the non-canonical stuff got in the way of real enjoyment for me.

The person who's writing against canon sort of needs it more.

I understand that sometimes people write or read fanfic to get the things that they they don't get from canon; but I don't think I'd be inspired to go to the trouble of searching out fic for a canon that I found unsatisfying, let alone write it.

I know exactly what you mean--when it's written down, it's real, even if you know it's not. I've been really upset by fanfics for just that reason.

Me too, which is one reason I'm so cautious! I'm surprised (and relieved) to hear you say that, though; I thought I was just a wimp. I think it might be because I visualize when I read. Visualizing characters I love behaving in ways that upset me is gives it a kind of reality. In meta, I don't have to visualize.

Maybe also because I can't argue with it because it's not meta.

Heh, I actually have said "I think your take on this character is wrong" a few times in reviews, and given canon reasons why I thought so. Strangely enough, none of the writers appreciated my helpfulness! But the stories I did this for were all ones that disturbed me, and it actually did help when I verbalized my objections to them. I'm not sure what the best approach is. Fortunately, I haven't seen a story that's made me want to do that for a while now. Knock on wood.

...too often the people who *do* take on fanfic and say "this cliche is wrong" or whatever wind up mixing the two and telling people to write things I don't think are canon either.

I hasten to say that I never told people how they should have written the story; I'd just say "I think X's attitude is OOC because of this passage in Chapter 6 of Book 4...."

I read things that a) reflect the canon the way I see it; b)take liberties with canon that I enjoy, maybe because they're emphasizing a note that I see and like that just isn't dominant in the text, or because it reflects some way I'd like canon to be; or c) fall into some neutral territory where I'm not bothered by the liberties taken.

Most fanfic tends to be either A or C, for me. (Or D, something that takes liberties I don't enjoy which I've stumbled across by accident.) B is a very small category for me.

I know that certain things will upset me to have read them (probably especially if they're well-written).

Yes!! My view of a particular canon pairing still has not recovered from the traumatic experience of one of the Big Major Fanfics that's on everybody's must-read list. There are three or four more more major, award-winning stories that I've refused to read based on the trauma of that experience.