Sokka/Zuko=BFF 4-EVA!

[sistermagpie]

So wildgoosery has been posting this Sokka/Zuko fic The Usual Reasons and I love it. I was going to start babbling about something she said with regards to it and the realized with horror that it was probably going to be more like a post than a comment, because I got all into the awesomeness of what Avatar was doing that laid the groundwork for what she was doing.



So the comment that she made regarding the situation in her fic was this. For background, the fic takes place after Zuko has joined the GAang, but before Boiling Rock. The two become friends and then friends with benefits, but Mai/Zuko and Sokka/Suki are still very much alive. Zuko, of course, struggles with the idea of what this will mean when he sees Mai again, while Sokka, of course, assures him they're just keeping each other company.

So Ali said, regarding what would happen later on, that Sokka and Zuko are moving together emotionally, but that after the events of Boiling Rock they'll be forced to pull away from each other again. (Though in some ways Boiling Rock, I would say, solidifies their connection before they do.)

So what I was going to start babbling about is how surprisingly natural it is for me to imagine them pulling together emotionally the way they do in her fic and on the show, which goes back to how well the show deals with kids of this age interacting with each other. In the commentary to WAT the writers they mentioned how when they imagined Zuko joining the group they had originally thought Sokka would be most resistant to him, but then realized it was more dramatic if it was Katara.

I think it's more than it being more dramatic, it's also just more organic. As odd as it sounds, I don't think Sokka has much personally against Zuko. He's the enemy, definitely, but if he's no longer the enemy he'll reevaluate him. Somehow that works for this character, and it made me think about the relationships between the three main boys and how it's different than the girls.

I talked about the whole masculine/feminine thing before, but reading Ali's fic is just struck me how it makes so much sense that this boy would draw the others to him in different ways. When Toph joins the group Katara says it'll be nice to have another girl, but she and Toph wind up at odds. Girls are a bit...different that way. I mean, Toph is younger than Katara and that makes a difference--Sokka and Aang didn't immediately hit it off either. Aang was closer to Katara. But with Zuko and Sokka, they're the same age, and that seems important in different ways than it would be with a girl. I guess because it seems like girls at that age might not have been drawn to each other just because they were girls. It seems like many girls, for instance, would just hang with the boys or dislike the other person for being a girl. If they didn't hit it off, that would probably be that.

But looking at the way the boys react to Zuko--with Aang, for instance, the two of them have always had this weird desire for each other's approval even while opposing each other. Aang looks up to Zuko as an older boy--one whose personality is a lot like his own (if it hadn't been twisted, that is) and puts a lot of similar pressures on himself. Aang's being the Avatar and what he symbolizes to Zuko, makes up for his age, so that they can react to each other as equals even though they're different ages.

With Sokka, though, Zuko's just another boy his age, and I don't think he can just be ignored. But personality-wise, they seem to make better friends than rivals. Before Zuko got himself together he might have hated Sokka because Sokka represented everything he wanted to repress in himself: silliness, affection for others, love of life, joy and creativity (the last time Zuko got an idea it didn't work out too well). But once Zuko is more balanced, he can see Sokka as having the qualities he needs and wants to cultivate.

And that's kind of true with Sokka too, because you don't always want to be meat and sarcasm guy. All three boys have done the "I have to reclaim my honor" thing, and it seems very natural that when Aang says it (when first waking up after CoD) he's wrong and should have listened to Katara telling him to rest. Sokka goes to the guy most likely to understand the right and wrong way to regain one's honor and the mistakes you have to make to get there. I think Zuko's shy smile at seeing Hakoda safe with his family is partly him allowing himself to share in the satisfaction. God knows he's never going to be able to save his father, but this is pretty close. It's almost a companion test to successful redirection of Ozai's lightning back in DoBS. First his father fails to destroy him, then Zuko gets to rescue him.

I was reading this book I found at work recently that talked about those four male archetypes that are supposed to be balanced--some people say whenever you find a group of four boys they’ll be these four types. The four are: The King, the Warrior, the Magician and the Lover. (I love applying those to groups of fictional fours--my personal feeling about MWPP? James=King, Sirius=Warrior, Remus=Magician (shapeshifter) and Peter=Lover)

So I can't help but wonder where I'd put the Avatar guys—watch me reduce everyone to symbols and archetypes! They all switch between the four, but it seems like we should also be able to step back and see them playing different roles with each other. Zuko, for instance, is heir to the throne, so that would make him a king. Even though he's spent most of the series as a bad warrior, along the way of his travels he also learns how to be a good king, as he tells Ozai in their confrontation.

Iroh, by contrast, has rejected the literal role of king--except in so far as he is mentoring Zuko to be king. I'd say he seems to be most happy as the lover at this point (go Iroh!) but his warrior or magician is always ready when needed.

Sokka is also all four: he takes on a kingly leader role in making strategy for the group, but he's also a warrior. He’s worked some magic with his plans and the boy's utterly romantic.

It's interesting, actually, to see where each of these characters seems to feel least secure. Sokka sometimes seems insecure as a warrior due to his being left behind unable to protect the water tribe (he's also often teased about his lack of power, since he's young and can't bend). He seeks out a sword master and apprentices himself to the Kyoshi warriors. I might also say he’s weak on magician because he identifies himself as the practical one who isn’t into magic.

Aang’s Avatar role has a lot of king in it. He's watching over four nations, has inherited responsibility and wields power far beyond his own. We've seen him fight as a warrior, he's in touch with the spirit world and magic, and while he’s just now working on being a romantic lover, he’s a natural lover in general. I'd say the role Aang's least comfortable with are King and Warrior--since the air bending style is almost entirely defensive and he shies away from the more aggressive bending styles. It makes sense his role as King will be the last one he masters--as symbolized by the Avatar state.

I'm trying to think of which ones Zuko feels the most insecure about or needs to work on the most (it’s hard when he starts out such a mess!). I'm thinking magician. I mean, even though he's been screwed up for so long so it came out badly, he does quite naturally assume the role of king because he's so into duty. His whole banishment occurred because he had the instincts of a good king and he spent years trying to suppress them. He did pretty well as a warrior even before he got the wisdom to go to the next level. He's got problems as a lover too, but he's learning through trying. (He must be doing something right judging by Mai’s behavior!)

It honestly seems like it's when he's called on to be a Magician that he shies away the most. It's all Iroh mumbo-jumbo to him. I think he needs a visit to the spirit world, maybe. Or maybe I’m completely wrong here and forgetting something.

Anyway, Sokka/Zuko=BFFs 4-EVA!!! wildgoosery’s fic is better than this post which was inspired by it and then went off on a big tangent!

Comments

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Hee! There's some repetition in this post (which you probably will notice yourself any moment), but otherwise I loved it :D :D I was starting to put my Avatar loff 'on a shelf' since I'm not really in fandom and there's no real desire to read fic for anyone specifically (even genfic). This might change once the series is over.

Anyway! What is the book! That sounds right up my alley, haha. I was just gonna say that those 4 archetypes normally coexist within one person (in reality), so any story where they're clearly divided within a foursome is going to be over-simplified. And lo! With HP it fits, with Avatar it doesn't, quite, ahahahahahfalkjsf. There's also an anime I immediately thought of, Hana Yori Dango, and it has the Flower Four super-cool boys, and there's definitely the Leader (king), the Sensitive/Intellectual One (magician), the Player/wild One (lover), and the Dedicated/loyal/serious One (Warrior). In HP, I suppose Sirius straddles the line between Warrior (dog archetype!) and Lover, but the lover is only a personality trait aspect rather than a role, and also it's definitely easily dominated by the warrior role. But anyway, haha.

All the stuff about girls and boys bonding differently is fascinating. I think girls bond better when they're in groups with only girls or they're in a mixed society that isn't already committed yet, regardless of other factors-- like, so you have the Queen Bees find their following and the quiet/weird girls pair off, etc. It seems more like a delicate ecosystem, or something. Boys seem more 'on the go' and impulsive...?? haha. Girls need bonding/talking time, boys are more likely to bond through shared activities/experiences. Maybe. Talking time is hard to come by in a small mixed group, 'cause somehow the boys always dominate the needs of said group if it's mixed, and the girls end up 'serving' the boys, even in the most innocent of ways (Toph teaches, and so does Katara, who also takes care of everyone).

I wonder about 'kingliness'-- it's probably the most complex archetype/state to master, 'cause it's more than leadership or duty-- certainly more than duty. Zuko couldn't be a good king before he mastered himself/his father issues and saw more of the world (like the geek earth king realized). In other words, besides instincts, you need to be wise. Because normally, a leader has another leader above him if things go wrong, or some fail-safes in there somewhere, but a King (or an Avatar) is the last stop, so he needs to control himself first and foremost. A King, archetypally (I think) is really the culmination or combination of a warrior, lover, and priest/magician, sort of like a mini Avatar state. :> The Apotheosis of manlines, ahaha. I definitely think it's more a mental state than a physical fact (actual kingship), though in terms of seeing it in stories, most often it's just the leader in the group, haha.


First his father fails to destroy him, then Zuko gets to rescue him.
awwwwwww. *warm and fuzzy* :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Good lord, I totally didn't even notice the repetition--no idea how I did it--until somebody in RL mentioned it! Then I was like--does anybody have a computer? LOL!

You think Sirius is the lover? That's interesting--why? Because I did think that for a second because of the "he's the sexiest" comment, but he usually ignores girls and has no romantic relationships. Though it doesn't have to be romantic love, of course. So he did love James--but I was thinking how his love for Harry always seemed so stunted too in OotP. Anyway, everybody should have some of both, like you said, and of course in Avatar it's just not so clear-cut!

It seems more like a delicate ecosystem, or something.

Delicate or maybe just more fluid? Girls' relationships so often change--like I know I've read about things pointing out that men always tend to look for hierarchies. In any situation if they meet other men that's going to be a factor--it doesn't have to be a bad thing, but everybody sort of has their place. This is interesting in Avatar because it's just not so clear cut. There's no one boy I would say is the leader all the time. Aang's the Avatar, but he's young and learning. Sokka's the one with the plans, but he's also young and goofy. Zuko sometimes takes on the responsibility, but he's also young and confused. So they shift around and act more like equals, which is nice.

Girls' hiearchies tend to change--somebody who's Queen Bee one day can be out the next. Not always literally the way it just happened with the dangerous ladies, of course! I think they also are just socialized to focus on men more than men focus on women. Like with guys I think they're given this idea that your guy friends are important and separate than girls (bros before hos!) while with girls they're encouraged to make their romantic partner the center of their life so men can be more central.

It's nice, though, that Avatar doesn't do that either. I mean, it shows girls having relationships with each other that are more complicated. Katara and Toph have some problems, but they're very much about their specific personalities and not jealousy over some boy. Same thing with Azula and her friends.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Nah, I just said Sirius 'straddles the line' in terms of personality traits (rather than role), which isn't the same thing as being the Lover (which is a role/archetype). I don't think he's ever really self-actualized, anyway, sooo the Warrior thing seems half-assed almost as much as the Lover thing. While loving Harry was stunted, I think it (loyalty, dedication, and Harry himself) meant a lot to him, more than anything after James died. Stunted!love is a particular favorite of mine so I have to defend it <3. Sirius is a stunted person. When thinking about who he is on a larger level, I have to give him room to grow, as if he never grew up and is still a teenager. Which, he pretty much didn't, and he pretty much is :>

Oh yeah, more fluid, definitely. Men really do look for hierarchies, don't they? How animal/pack-like, haha, it's scary. The animal mind is a present and clear thing, it seems. Wow.

I think on a deeper level, the girls are somewhat relational to the boys, and their deepest bonds are to boys-- Azula to her father and his role, Katar to Aang to Sokka, Mai to Zuko-- but this is debatable. I mean, the girls have relationships that aren't about boys, but it seems like men still come first in one way or another. With Azula, it's less 'men' and more 'male-dominated power', but then she's a special case. Anyway it'd be weird/unrealistic if they were so balanced as to be idyllic, of course. There's stuff to work on, at least. :>

It's true that girls hierarchies tend to change, and a Queen Bee may lose her footing among followers (like Azula did), but an Alpha may lose his footing too. My feeling is that Queen Bees hold a deeper/darker power over the little worker bees 'cause it's less transcribed and more emotional/psychological. You have a way to challenge the male ruler (just defeat him), but how do you 'defeat' a Queen Bee? It's complex. Unsurprisingly, a guy provides a good reason. ^^; Generally, in your average HS story, they just grow out of it or are publically humiliated and disempowered (and how often could that possibly happen?). Especially with Azula and Mai and the three of them, I always felt Avatar portrayed the vaguely disturbing nature of those sorts of groups, 'cause the Queen Bee is pretty vicious in acquiring power and the little bees tend to be forcefully oblivious to their state of living. Like, 'it's just the way things are, we're still friends... no, really', even though you're... not really friends. You only figure that out after HS. Normal friends don't ask you to do these things for them. Aahhhh. haha :> At least, it only hit me later :P

It's true that the guys' relationships are unusually fluid, and of course Toph and Katara get to lead too-- basically they work together as a team! Which is like, what it's all about, baby, etc. Not so much that they change leaders as that they have the person most suited do the job. Probably, in the sense of 'greater mission', the leader is Aang, but even there they provide input. True teamwork is a beautiful thing :D

[seven31.livejournal.com]

It's true that girls hierarchies tend to change, and a Queen Bee may lose her footing among followers (like Azula did), but an Alpha may lose his footing too. My feeling is that Queen Bees hold a deeper/darker power over the little worker bees 'cause it's less transcribed and more emotional/psychological. You have a way to challenge the male ruler (just defeat him), but how do you 'defeat' a Queen Bee?

Other Queen Bees are hatched. The first Queen out stings her rivals to death... unlike worker bees, the Queen can sting and not die.

If Azula is the is the Queen Bee, Ozai is the Alpha Dog.

The other Queens would disrupt the hive. (Mai seems a hidden Queen, with Ty Lee as the worker bee who is hesitant about which way to swarm)
The Alpha Dog, on the other hand, needs strong Betas (Iroh) for his pack even though he knows that the Beta could potentially be a threat. Goes back to the pack mentality that you brought up.

Men seek hierarchy. Women seek domination. Two sides of the same coin.
But the animal mind (both bee and dog) must have served humanity at one time, otherwise, we would not as a species continue to display it. More sad then scary, I think.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Haha, this is all fascinating. When you bring up these points, I realize my understanding of both bees and human females is somehow inadequate :> Most of the time the dynamics I see and therefore 'study' are male ones (which I'm pretty confident about). I never really felt part of the bee/worker dynamic in the same way most guys are familiar with hierarchy ('cause it pervades society, perhaps?? haha). I've had friends be 'Queen-like', but I was never part of a 'swarm'-- just sort of a freelance bee? That's why I mentioned two girls 'pairing off' outside the system, which is something I'm familiar with :)

I don't think Mai would want dominion over others; too much trouble, eh? :>

[seven31.livejournal.com]

That's why I mentioned two girls 'pairing off' outside the system, which is something I'm familiar with :)

Are you referring to Katara and Toph?
If so, I recall their initial meetings as two queens without a hive. Katara attempting to dominate Toph by telling her how to teach Aang. Toph establishing herself, rightfully, as the queen of Earth.

I suppose Aang with his feminine energy could be the hive of one, the lone worker bee, swarming from one queen to the next based on his needs.

It is true that neither Katara nor Toph dominated the other, but at least one of them tried.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

No, no, now you're confusing me, haha. I was referring to part of my first comment: "like, so you have the Queen Bees find their following and the quiet/weird girls pair off, etc."

I don't even know what I was talking about, but definitely not Katara and Toph :>
I can't picture either of them as a queen. That's really where the metaphor fails for me-- because I do think guys are literally endowed with a pack mentality, but I don't see girls falling into a queen/worker binary so easily. I feel like some girls do and some girls, er, don't. I know I don't, haha. I prefer to be Switzerland when it comes to human (or female/female) relationships, and I also don't prefer or focus on female/female relationships any more than f/m or f/f/m or m/m/f or something. What happens when bees and dogs cross over? Worlds collide! haha. So yeah, in my personal experience, I just quietly pair off with other quiet girls who like to pair off (and even if they're queenish or outgoing, they tone it down with me, because I just don't mix with groups very well, as all my friends know).

So yeah, I dunno. Um, I don't think Katara tried to *dominate* Toph, exactly...?? And also, these power-struggles aren't automatically *those* sorts of power struggles (and besides, the Queen doesn't really struggle or fight for her position the way an Alpha does, she's just sort of... different). Like, Toph is very individualistic and 'hey, I can do it myself, thanks', which makes her like me in that sense-- this is where the whole queen metaphor breaks down, too. You can be a 'lone wolf' (outside the hierarchy), but there are no lone bees. Which makes sense-- while dogs and other pack animals are in our bloodlines pretty directly, we're not really related to bees, hahah.

So yeah, I don't think Toph wanted dominance over anyone, but rather autonomy and independence, which is different. Katara, on the other hand, also wanted something that's not quite queeny-type dominance-- she's not Azula in that she wants power/fear/respect/minions. Rather, she's a different archetype: rather than being taken care of or 'served' as a Queen, she wants to take care and to serve. This is sort of the flipside of that feminine archetype: the Bitch Queen vs. the Sweet Mother. Sometimes, 'tis true, the Mother is a bitch (haha) but usually this involves different motivations and conditions and such. Katara seems to be a bitch to Toph and/or trying to 'claim' her, but really she's just frustrated Toph isn't appreciating her efforts to draw her in.

Though really, Katara has more of a 'hive' (well, family) than Toph does: she wanted to share that with her, though Toph perceived the sharing as stifling (always a danger with that type of person). Katara has Sokka and Aang, and they're both very much hers. But this is different than how Azula possesses the other girls, mostly 'cause Azula uses intimidation/force rather than love.


Anyway, the metaphor gets really weird when it's possible to have a hive of one, hahah; it seems like a contradiction in terms (isn't every individual then a hive of one? haha though I suppose Aang is special having all the Avatars inside him, but it's not like he's aware of them unless he's in the Avatar state, and who knows what he's really aware of then... though now this is amusing me as an AU-- like, Aang gets stuck in the Avatar state, oh noes!).

[seven31.livejournal.com]

Anyway, the metaphor gets really weird when it's possible to have a hive of one, hahah; it seems like a contradiction in terms...

Just posting quickly, I want to respond deeper but have no time right now, so it might be a bit.

The hive acts as one that's why the metaphor can still play out.

[seven31.livejournal.com]

because I do think guys are literally endowed with a pack mentality, but I don't see girls falling into a queen/worker binary so easily. I feel like some girls do and some girls, er, don't.

That can be said of some boys too.
Arguably, pairing off with other quiet girls is starting a pack. A quiet pack.


I don't think Katara tried to *dominate* Toph, exactly...?? And also, these power-struggles aren't automatically *those* sorts of power struggles (and besides, the Queen doesn't really struggle or fight for her position the way an Alpha does, she's just sort of... different). Like, Toph is very individualistic and 'hey, I can do it myself, thanks', which makes her like me in that sense-- this is where the whole queen metaphor breaks down, too.

Katara attempted to impose her teaching style onto Toph. Sure, this attempt at to dominate is gentle but it's none too subtle.

I agree that Toph doesn't attempt to dominate Katara. She's solitary. She is a rock. She is an island. So, the queen metaphor may break down with her.


I don't think Toph wanted dominance over anyone

Yet, she has entered into competitive events where the one who dominates the other is victor. When she 'sees' The Boulder come to the batter on the DoBS, she challenges him, asking if he's looking for a rematch.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

It's true that some boys don't fall into hierarchies; my point was that lone wolves exist in a pack hierarchy, so boys outside the system are actually inside it also.

With Katara, like I said, it's not that she doesn't dominate but that the reasons and context is different. She's not trying to gain power for its own purpose-- she's forcefully mothering (or smothering). It's that whole 'for your own good' type of thing. I wouldn't say she's a rock or an island, clearly, but she's just a different type of person than Azula, basically.

Competition itself isn't really an attempt at dominion, though it can be (especially with team sports). It's not that you're being gentle and kind, but it's like... well, not all domination has the same goals. Specifically, a 'queen bee' or an Alpha wants to be served/supported and so on, in a long-term way. In a contest of strength & skill, you (or at least Toph) want to prove something to yourself and to others: that you're strong. It's not about the other person's submission so much as it is about how you achieved it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think the main reason I question Sirius being a lover is that he seems, like most in canon, so asexual. It's only the people who have creepy sexual obsessions who wind up seeming sexual! But no, I've got no trouble with stunted love. The books just seem to like hate more. :-) I think I tend to think of Sirius' loyalty as being about being the warrior again.


I think Queen Bees get displaced all the time. Enough resentment builds up, then all the girls decide when she's not around that she's always been a bitch and she did something that makes them better than her, and when they all go after her together she can be more thoroughly brought down than a guy would be! Of course that doesn't always happen, but once a girl's considered to think she's "all that" she's done for. I can think of some examples in fandom, even...

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

It could be about the Warrior! But it's more than that (to me) 'cause, I think, Sirius is more real to me than canon fully warrants. Same as the case for you with Draco, I believe :> It's easy to build on these characters; that's why I was talking about 'potential' and stuff like that. I think the 'Lust' in Wormtail's character is pretty intrinsic; it's not likely he'd just needed more 'care' to turn out better (but who knows). With Sirius, though, a lot of things got messed up. I do think he seems asexual in practice, but his personality isn't, rather like with Tonks. The reason so many fanon stereotypes involve him being a Ladies Man is because there's this playful/sparkly aspect to him. And one aspect of the Lover is the Player. I see Sirius as the Player (in terms of personality) even if he never baited girls. And if he didn't, it'd be a bit weird (given he didn't like James or Remus 'that way', 'cause they weren't 'too busy' in HS, I don't think). Awww, I don't think the books like hate so much as they're notsogood at describing love :>

As I said above, I don't really know enough about female social dynamics to feel confident either way. ^^; Kinda sad, huh :> I sort of hear about it either from a distance or one-on-one-- in fandom, say. It's true that BNFs fall rather spectacularly in HP fandom, at least, haha, and there's a sort of public glee at the prospect of juicy 'wank' that strips the feathers from the bird, so to speak. The girls always subconsciously want the queen to fall. The more spectacularly the better, I guess.

I guess I was just thinking about HS and childhood bonds and how the same girl generally has the power for years, but life isn't HS, and that's a very cultivated/artificial environment, too. :> You're right about the rise precipitating the fall, though. Girls are scary, haha.

[seven31.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think the main reason I question Sirius being a lover is that he seems, like most in canon, so asexual.

I use to believe this though I suppose if canon is defined as only what is in the series then I still believe that. But after reading the 800 word brief story, my perception changed. I got the distinct impression that Sirius was in unrequited love with James.

James is seated in the 'pillion' which Random House defines as "a pad or cushion attached behind a saddle, esp. as a seat for a woman" implying that the seat in front is for the man. A bunch of pigs at Random House. They're both wearing the exact same shirt. Wearing no helmets (no protection, riding bare back as it were). Coming up with the name 'Elvendork' which suggests Elf penis. Though I suppose it could be argued that Dobby dick is not as hot as Legolas dong. I know it's a stretch, but it was my immediate reaction.

I had a similar reaction reading the gayest sentence in the Potter books that made me think and pose that Dumbledore might be gay before he was outed and before Deathly Hallows. In fact, I had a mental fanfic of him going to a speakgaily (instead of a speakeasy; I'm not sure what it would be called but I'm sure gay bars existed on the very down low circa 1937). Where he would meet with a gay Muggle and have a deep discussion about love and its power (I still thought love or the Love Room in the Dept of Mysteries was going to play a role) and that Dumbledore would be moved by the man, make love to him in the bathroom, leave it holding hands, and setting up a time to meet for tea that weekend. Dumbledore seems to leave the bar, disapparating back to Hogsmead. Seconds later, the door busts open and the bar is raided. The gay Muggle is gunned down. Dumbledore reads about it in the London Times and cries.

I've since slashed that entire mentalfic after learning that Dumbledore embraced manipulation over love. He was fucking right about sorting to soon. So many people died because he was too much of a limp dick to face Gellert. He should've been in Ravenclaw.

[r-ganymede.livejournal.com]

I think Zuko's shy smile at seeing Hakoda safe with his family is partly him allowing himself to share in the satisfaction. God knows he's never going to be able to save his father, but this is pretty close.

I've never thought about how it might relate to his own father before, even though it does make sense. That scene totally had me thinking about Zuko's mother, mostly because she fits more with the kind of parent that Sokka and Katara got back, even if she's his mother and not his father. If he ever thought about himself saving one of his parents like they did Hakoda, I think it would be her. I can just see a young Zuko, confused and trying to adjust to what happened to his mom when no one will tell him anything, coming up with all kinds of explanations in his head (like she was kidnapped by bandits or something) and maybe imagining himself rescuing her.

We had better find out what happened to her in one of those last few episodes.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I can't believe I never thought of that but you're right. I hope we do find out what happened to her--it seems like Zuko's "Then she might be alive!" could be leading that way. It feels like there's a shoe to drop there.

It's interesting now that you point that out how as you say, the idea of Zuko imagining things happening to her puts him in the position of saving her in that classic damsel in distress way. Not that Zuko thinks his mother is powerless, I don't think. There's just a slightly different dynamic to the switching of roles of protector and protected.

[seven31.livejournal.com]

I hope we do find out what happened to her--it seems like Zuko's "Then she might be alive!" could be leading that way. It feels like there's a shoe to drop there.

I hope it's left open. I imagine that Zuko will be king by the end of the series. I would like to see him consider/start his King on a Quest journey, a nice end from where we met him as Prince in Banishment.

It's interesting now that you point that out how as you say, the idea of Zuko imagining things happening to her puts him in the position of saving her in that classic damsel in distress way. Not that Zuko thinks his mother is powerless, I don't think. There's just a slightly different dynamic to the switching of roles of protector and protected.

Or the dynamic difference is child(protector)/mother(protected). Mother is usually the protector with their children (unless stepmother). So it would be the cub (Zuko) protecting the mama bear (Ursa), rather than the Knight saving the Damsel. (I don't see her as damsel, and hope I never do)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that makes sense. I was uncomfortable with the idea of her as a damsel, because she clearly isn't one--and I don't think Zuko sees her that way. He heard the story years ago that she saved him.

[r-ganymede.livejournal.com]

It's not so much that I think he sees her as a damsel (clearly she isn't!) as that it's kind the path I think his thoughts might take based on the situation. I mean she's just sort of missing, so he's bound to wonder about where she is and thinking she's probably in trouble. And obviously he'd be feeling a lot like Sokka felt at the beginning of the Boiling Rock, except nobody will answer his questions or give him a way to actually do something. So I could just see it as something he might think about when he was younger in order to not think about the worse things that might have happened to her and keep his hope alive. If she's being held captive, she's not dead, etc.

Though I could also see him wanting to protect her because she protected him.

[seven31.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, actually, to see where each of these characters seems to feel least secure. Sokka sometimes seems insecure as a warrior due to his being left behind unable to protect the water tribe (he's also often teased about his lack of power, since he's young and can't bend). He seeks out a sword master and apprentices himself to the Kyoshi warriors. I might also say he’s weak on magician because he identifies himself as the practical one who isn’t into magic.

I would say that Sokka's actions show him to be a good magician (transforming various plans into action). If what you are identifying is the weakest archetype, then for Sokka, it would have to be King. When he's given the opportunity to lead, the adults of Earth and Water (his people) during the Day of Black Sun, he fails and Hakoda steps in.

In fact, I would say all the boys are learning to be Kings. Sokka is Magican, Aang is Lover, and Zuko is Warrior. I don't think Iroh should be included among the boys, he is already a King. None of the boys needs the other to coronate them. They have to put the crowns on themselves.


I was reading this book I found at work recently that talked about those four male archetypes that are supposed to be balanced--some people say whenever you find a group of four boys they’ll be these four types. The four are: The King, the Warrior, the Magician and the Lover. (I love applying those to groups of fictional fours--my personal feeling about MWPP? James=King, Sirius=Warrior, Remus=Magician (shapeshifter) and Peter=Lover)

Peter as Lover?!? Though, I suppose Peter may have been the shadow-side of Lover: Luster(but where's the canon unless it's a luster of power, then maybe.) Ugh! I cannot stand the Marauders.

How about applying it the fictional four of South Park?
Stan=King (rarely displayed in the shadow-side: Tyrant)
Kyle=Warrior (sometimes in shadow: Fighter)
Eric=Magician (always in the shadow: Dark Wizard)
Kenny=Lover (always in the shadow: Luster)

It's interesting that when Kenny(Luster) is out of the group, Butters(True Lover) is in.

But I digress.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I would say that Sokka's actions show him to be a good magician (transforming various plans into action). If what you are identifying is the weakest archetype, then for Sokka, it would have to be King. When he's given the opportunity to lead, the adults of Earth and Water (his people) during the Day of Black Sun, he fails and Hakoda steps in.

Oh yes! I should have totally thought of that--that's a great example. I was never very comfortable with the "he's not the magician because he's practical" idea, though I threw it out there, because I actually do think Sokka makes magic happen a lot more than a lot of other characters. He's the one who seems to come up with this stuff out of thin air because he's thinking differently. But not only does he choke in DoBS, he's also obviously never really tried to be the leader in the group.

In fact, I would say all the boys are learning to be Kings. Sokka is Magican, Aang is Lover, and Zuko is Warrior.

Totally agree. And also about Iroh, who's obviously completed his development already and is comfortable with any of the four roles now. He has special reason for wanting Zuko to be a good king, but he also encourages him to explore all the other roles to get there.

Peter as Lover?!? Though, I suppose Peter may have been the shadow-side of Lover: Luster(but where's the canon unless it's a luster of power, then maybe.) Ugh! I cannot stand the Marauders.

Heh--that's what I was thinking, that Peter was Lover Gone Wrong. Very creepy.:-) His relationship with Voldemort is sort of that way too--he's sort of an abused lover there, but even in canon it's compared to his earlier fawning over James.

The South Park example is cool! At first I thought I might switch Eric and Kyle and make Kyle the magician. But you're right Cartman often is the one pulling the Dark Magic and he'd much rather do that than fight.

[seven31.livejournal.com]

The South Park example is cool! At first I thought I might switch Eric and Kyle and make Kyle the magician. But you're right Cartman often is the one pulling the Dark Magic and he'd much rather do that than fight.

Thanks!
As a ps; I was thinking about Tweak. He was the Fourth for a while, but his archetype (if he had one), did not push the story of the boys. A love (addiction?) of coffee is not as powerful as a lust for women (Kenny) nor of love of life (Butters).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to remember...did the boys kind of "audition" Tweak for a member of the group? If they did they discovered the same problem!

It's interesting the way Butters has developed, particularly the way Cartman gets used with him a lot.

[seven31.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Tweak won the audition.

Butters/Cartman is great! More so than Kenny/Cartman. I think it's because both Kenny and Cartman represent the Shadow so there isn't too much clash, just the occasional comment about being poor or being fat. Funny, but can only go so far. Kyle/Cartman has been explored successfully. The Light Warrior v the Dark Wizard is good tv, but we've seen it extensively.

Life Lover Butters v Death Monger Cartman is a breath of fresh air to the series.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

So true. It's a very different dynamic. I love that the characters are strong enough that they naturally bring out these different conflicts. Like you see the organic conflicts that come up between Kyle and Cartman (more so than Stan and Cartman, I notice. Cartman doesn't get under Stan's skin the same way. He inspires the warrior in Kyle).

But Cartman/Butters is so fabulous. Butters is actually sometimes at his strongest with Cartman. His relentless love of life wears him down and turns Cartman's schemes against him. Or else just rising above them because he never gets it. Sometimes there's even more of a turnaround, like in the one where Cartman thinks he's dead and Cartman is the only one who can see him, and he thinks he has to do good deeds to move on to heaven.