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In response to a secret there's been a lot of discussion about Mai today on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
fandomsecrets,. The OP doesn't like Mai because they can't get over her…...
...can't get over her leaving her little brother with the GAang on Azula's orders and fighting with them instead of making a stand to get him back. She is not redeemed for this when she stands up to Azula at the end of the show to protect Zuko. Many people have talked about different issues here, how the first scene takes place in the first episode where Mai appears, how it shows how she is under Azula's thumb, how if she flung herself in front of Azula right away it would be skipping the entire character arc that gets her to make her stand later.
But what another issue that came up was that some people feel the difference between these two scenes is only the identity of the person in danger. Tom Tom is Mai's little brother, Zuko is the man she loves. Therefore she's being selfish, only sticking her neck out when it's someone she cares about. She wants Zuko for herself; she has no use for Tom Tom.
I don't think that reading is fair to the writers, because I honestly don't see Mai as being redeemed by love in the way that reading seems to imply. Of course her relationship with Zuko is her path to redemption. Her big moment spells it out: I love Zuko more than I fear you. Yes, this talks about love, but more importantly it talks about fear it's the fear that's more important. But it's not the fear of being hurt, imo.
Mai's a badass. A deadly badass. She may be very much aware that Azula is more deadly and can beat her, but it doesn't seem like she's a cringing coward, exactly. In fact, Mai’s shocking decision to act takes place far from Azula. It’s not Azula’s scariness that she has to overcome to act, it’s her own apathy. Apathy is the thing the character’s been associated since the beginning, more than fear of Azula or an inability to love.
The character openly describes herself as not caring about anything. Her whole personality hammers on this: she's emotionless, bored, doesn't care. She says she learned early on that her emotions were useless. Nobody listened to her. She only got positive reinforcement for being outwardly calm.
Grand, futile gestures (such as leaping to Tom Tom's defense) aren't just things Mai is afraid to do or doesn't care to do, they make no sense to her. They're useless. What's the point? She literally doesn't see a point to them, so she couldn't get herself to make one. That’s the thing about futile gestures. If you don’t think there’s any meaning in them, you don’t make them.
It’s no coincidence that Mai's great love interest is the guy whose father orders him to spend his life searching the globe for somebody who disappeared 100 years ago. It's the definition of futile gesture. It's a snark hunt. Anybody but Zuko probably would have...well, done something else. Anything. Taken up a hobby, at least, while he traveled around. But Zuko's got futile gestures in his bones. Dad wants him to search for the Avatar? He'll look for 3 years straight. He'll search his whole life, because it's a matter of honor. He’ll be distracted playing Pai Sho because it distracts him from thinking about his pointless quest.
The fact that Mai is attracted to this guy, imo. indicates that part of her is attracted to exactly this. It's not that suddenly she wants someone else so can rouse herself to protect him, imo, it's also that by getting close to Zuko she starts to see this other way of looking at the world close up. I think she starts to see, more and more, how Zuko's devotion to things that seem totally ridiculous is noble and maybe even kind of meaningful. Even when the guy's got everything going well and he's the prince again he still runs off to join the Avatar. But when she meets him again there he is with that same crazy passion.
Now she's got this clear choice: she's already tried to talk "sense" into Zuko. She sees he's not being sulky, he's at his most passionate, focused and Zuko. That's the situation she's facing now. It's not just that she loved Zuko. Loving Zuko isn't enough if you're Mai. That doesn't make the gesture less pointless. And anyway, the character wasn't set up as somebody who didn't love anyone, she was set up as somebody who didn't care about anything. Zuko's actually made her consider the idea that a futile gesture that gets her killed or thrown in jail might still be worth it, might still have meaning, might actually change something. Mai goes from somebody who can barely get herself to do things that get her immediate rewards winds up doing something that as far as she know is only going to bring her grief. And she finds that it actually makes her feel good and not stupid.
The difference isn't love, it's hope.
fandomsecrets,. The OP doesn't like Mai because they can't get over her…......can't get over her leaving her little brother with the GAang on Azula's orders and fighting with them instead of making a stand to get him back. She is not redeemed for this when she stands up to Azula at the end of the show to protect Zuko. Many people have talked about different issues here, how the first scene takes place in the first episode where Mai appears, how it shows how she is under Azula's thumb, how if she flung herself in front of Azula right away it would be skipping the entire character arc that gets her to make her stand later.
But what another issue that came up was that some people feel the difference between these two scenes is only the identity of the person in danger. Tom Tom is Mai's little brother, Zuko is the man she loves. Therefore she's being selfish, only sticking her neck out when it's someone she cares about. She wants Zuko for herself; she has no use for Tom Tom.
I don't think that reading is fair to the writers, because I honestly don't see Mai as being redeemed by love in the way that reading seems to imply. Of course her relationship with Zuko is her path to redemption. Her big moment spells it out: I love Zuko more than I fear you. Yes, this talks about love, but more importantly it talks about fear it's the fear that's more important. But it's not the fear of being hurt, imo.
Mai's a badass. A deadly badass. She may be very much aware that Azula is more deadly and can beat her, but it doesn't seem like she's a cringing coward, exactly. In fact, Mai’s shocking decision to act takes place far from Azula. It’s not Azula’s scariness that she has to overcome to act, it’s her own apathy. Apathy is the thing the character’s been associated since the beginning, more than fear of Azula or an inability to love.
The character openly describes herself as not caring about anything. Her whole personality hammers on this: she's emotionless, bored, doesn't care. She says she learned early on that her emotions were useless. Nobody listened to her. She only got positive reinforcement for being outwardly calm.
Grand, futile gestures (such as leaping to Tom Tom's defense) aren't just things Mai is afraid to do or doesn't care to do, they make no sense to her. They're useless. What's the point? She literally doesn't see a point to them, so she couldn't get herself to make one. That’s the thing about futile gestures. If you don’t think there’s any meaning in them, you don’t make them.
It’s no coincidence that Mai's great love interest is the guy whose father orders him to spend his life searching the globe for somebody who disappeared 100 years ago. It's the definition of futile gesture. It's a snark hunt. Anybody but Zuko probably would have...well, done something else. Anything. Taken up a hobby, at least, while he traveled around. But Zuko's got futile gestures in his bones. Dad wants him to search for the Avatar? He'll look for 3 years straight. He'll search his whole life, because it's a matter of honor. He’ll be distracted playing Pai Sho because it distracts him from thinking about his pointless quest.
The fact that Mai is attracted to this guy, imo. indicates that part of her is attracted to exactly this. It's not that suddenly she wants someone else so can rouse herself to protect him, imo, it's also that by getting close to Zuko she starts to see this other way of looking at the world close up. I think she starts to see, more and more, how Zuko's devotion to things that seem totally ridiculous is noble and maybe even kind of meaningful. Even when the guy's got everything going well and he's the prince again he still runs off to join the Avatar. But when she meets him again there he is with that same crazy passion.
Now she's got this clear choice: she's already tried to talk "sense" into Zuko. She sees he's not being sulky, he's at his most passionate, focused and Zuko. That's the situation she's facing now. It's not just that she loved Zuko. Loving Zuko isn't enough if you're Mai. That doesn't make the gesture less pointless. And anyway, the character wasn't set up as somebody who didn't love anyone, she was set up as somebody who didn't care about anything. Zuko's actually made her consider the idea that a futile gesture that gets her killed or thrown in jail might still be worth it, might still have meaning, might actually change something. Mai goes from somebody who can barely get herself to do things that get her immediate rewards winds up doing something that as far as she know is only going to bring her grief. And she finds that it actually makes her feel good and not stupid.
The difference isn't love, it's hope.
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And there's also the chance that she put two and two together and observed how carefully her opponents were taking care of Tom-Tom; they brought him over in a baby sling, not a box. Happily cooing and pawing at Sokka's face, not crying and squirming to escape. And heck, she'd grown up with her parents and turned out, well...as that! XD It doesn't exactly follow the point of the essay, but it's possible that she said, "Hey, he's okay out there, he might even be better off."
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It shouldn’t be left up to the audience to reason out or create theories to explain/support a character’s actions. It’s a failure of the writers to communicate their intentions if they’re living it so open to interpretation. It’s not a question of making a character ambiguous because that would still require communicating that that character is ambiguous.
And of course, your reason/explanation is fundamentally an apologia of sorts and intrinsically, it is flawed: because it’s not so much something from canon, as a hypothesis a certain section of the audience makes to align with what they think canon should portray, it can be challenged by elements within the same canon. For example, “what's the point? Why show worry and concern? It wouldn't change anything. It would be useless” pretty much devolves back to the old argument of why Mai is moved to save Zuko in a way she wasn’t moved to save Tom-Tom. The “It would just stress her out and annoy her companions and make Azula dislike her” contradicts the moments in the story where Mai has been nonchalant to the point of insolence to Azula.
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It doesn't really say anything positive for Mai as a character that she allows herself to start caring for her boyfriend in a way that she couldn't allow herself to care for her brother. It only explains her character, not excuse it.
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I know--I'm just saying that Zuko, the guy who is her boyfriend, is explicitly the opposite of Mai in this regard, so that's part of her arc. I agree it just explains it doesn't excuse it--that was my only intention. We can only explain and if somebody thinks it excuses her behavior earlier or not is subjective. I just think the writers did set her up as going from not caring about anything to caring about something enough to stick herself out there--rather than showing her as only having one thing she cares about enough to do anything about. I think her decision in TBR marks a change in her so wouldn't doubt that if she faced the Tom Tom situation now she would choose differently.
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I think it can be read either way. Her words: "I love Zuko more than I fear you [Azula]" indicate two things:
1, The literal meaning: Her love for Zuko is greater than her fear - or by your interpretation, her apathy with respect to Azula. Not that her love has defeated her fear/apathy to every other thing forever. Just that in this situation, she will rise above her default nature for his sake. Mai has personal, direct relationships with both Zuko and Azula and when she makes this statement, she's referring first to these specific relationships and maybe, secondly, to her own nature.
2, The implication: that her fear for Azula is a direct consequence of her feelings for Zuko. Unlike her counterpart Ty Lee, Mai is established pretty early on as not afraid of Azula. She joins her eagerly enough; she sets limits on how far she will go for Azula; she's indifferent about hunting Zuko and the Avatar. But it is when Zuko enters the picture as her (Mai's) boyfriend, she starts being afraid of Azula. So would she feel fear towards Azula if anyone else was being threatened? We can only speculate. The story does not tell us.
And of course, it's made all the more obscure because Mai's story ends in The Boiling Rock, ends with that last grand gesture for Zuko's sake.
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If Tom-Tom were kidnapped now, after she rescued Zuko and reunited and all of that stuff...how would she act?
Or, if Zuko had been in danger when we first met Mai, would she have sacrificed herself to save him?
See, there's where character development comes into play. Because I can't see current!Mai just sitting back in the same way as 203!Mai. And if she had been the kind of person to rescue her brother before, then she wouldn't need the character development.
There's as much of a world of difference there as with taking penguinsledding!Aang and putting him on that cliff where finale!Aang waits for the Phoenix King.
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We don't know. Canon doesn't tell us either way. She defies Azula for Zuko's sake because the relationship she has with each of them. (It's not just love of Zuko or fear of Azula;but the two held up side by side; and you can argue that she only starts fearing Azula after she loves Zuko, not before).
Technically speaking, since Azula is no longer an issue in Mai's future, we'll never know if Mai will ever have defied her for anyone other than Zuko.
But someone can read it that Mai didn't have a character development - she just went from one kind of selfishness to another - as the OP said. Like I said earlier, the worrisome thing isn't so much that Mai does not defy Azula for her brother's sake, it's that she doesn't care to know his fate even after the dust has settled, so to speak.
And if she did change for love of Zuko, that's... OK but it would have been nicer/more wholesome if she had changed because she realized that a, she was on the wrong side of the war; b, Azula was crazy and needed to be stopped; c, she had treated her family pretty horribly in the past. Having her big makeover hinge on Zuko alone
weakens Mai as a characterdefines her by him, her boyfriend alone which is annoying because that was not how she was introduced or presented to us for a whole season. Even as Azula's sidekick, she still managed to be a unique person with her motivations, more so even than Ty Lee. But with Zuko as her motivator, the character of Mai seems to be "flattened" to love interest.Edited to make some thing a little clearer as I work things out in my mind.
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And "The Runaway" was one of the greatest Avatar episodes ever. As was "The Beach." There is so much genius and subtlety throughout those episodes, it's staggering. The writing, the detail, the pacing...throwbacks to the glory days of the first season, where there was a new adventure every day as they waited to get closer to the North Pole.
Now, I don't know how much farther you want to carry this debate. Magpie and I have both provided what I think are far beyond satisfactory explanations for certain things in the series, and I'm beginning to recognize the pattern of someone who is arguing just for the sake of being disagreeable. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.
The point of redemption is to repay the debts from past shortcomings. In any argument, there is no way to completely defend Mai's relationship with her brother, and I don't think she would even try if she was confronted about it herself. She'd just move on and be a better sister. She got a "D" on the "Big Sister" exam there, so the most she can do now is study for the next one to bring her grade up. Fortunately for her, she aced the "Girlfriend" and "Action Hero" exams.
But, like I said. I'm not going to waste my time arguing below a well-thought-out and well-written piece of meta that really doesn't have an argument against it.
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That's all. Not arguing for the sake of being disagreeable? *shakes head* Considering that you've now resorted to making personal attacks, I think you find the fact that I am arguing at all disagreeable not the reverse. Which is OK - there are a lot of fandom debates that I find sensitive. So I don't get involved them. Technically your arguments have failed several points earlier when you couldn't come up with logical counterpoints to my responses. So I certainly agree that discussing further will be a waste of time for both us, particularly since our conversation really ended a while ago and to prolong it by replying further will be discourteous to Magpie.
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But as I said, I don't think her role in TBR is "redemption" in terms of making up for what she did to Tom Tom. I think it's just the sign that this character is going a different way now, that her relationship with Zuko and the things she's seen because of it (the way he deals with things and thinks about things) she's not going to be the same person she is before. She's not a hero on the level of any of the GAang or Suki. She doesn't change as completely as Zuko does. I think it's more that she's taken the first step so we know why she'll still be his girlfriend and part of the solution when the show is over.
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No, I don't think it's a redemption either. It's a transition - she's transplanting loyalty from one person to another. And that's the problem with her decision - for Zuko/her relationship with him/the kind of person he is - with anyone's life perspective change of heart, as a matter of fact, on someone else's behalf. There's no indication that would make her make a different decision if Zuko's own decisions had been wrong. Like you said, the Boiling Rock established that she won't be left behind after Zuko saved the world (on retrospect, that scene is actually more about Azula's and Ty Lee's character arcs' than it is about Mai's) but it would also apply if Zuko wasn't going on to save the world, but to destroy it. And, going back to this point, it doesn't establish if Mai would make the same decision in the future for some else.
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I'm not sure why you would call Toph's arc in that episode filler just because nothing in it directly leads to the final outcome. But my point with Mai wasn't that they didn't have the time or space to do more with her if they wanted to. I think the level of attention Mai got was fine for the story and she didn't really need minute character detail. I don't think it was a bad decision to not minutely show Mai's changing feelings (especially since her character is opaque by definition). I wasn't confused by her actions at the end and didn't feel like I missed anything about her.
No, I don't think it's a redemption either. It's a transition - she's transplanting loyalty from one person to another.
Only Azula demands loyalty, though. She's broken up with Zuko when she acts on his behalf. I think her actions for Zuko represent far more of an independent action on her part than caving in to Azula.
Like you said, the Boiling Rock established that she won't be left behind after Zuko saved the world (on retrospect, that scene is actually more about Azula's and Ty Lee's character arcs' than it is about Mai's) but it would also apply if Zuko wasn't going on to save the world, but to destroy it.
I don't think it would be that dire, since as I said, I think the writers set them up enough to show that Mai is attracted to Zuko specifically--what makes him Zuko are the things that make him make the decisions that he does. She's not drawn by his charisma or his dominating personality. Her change of mind about what's right is definitely going to come from Zuko because he's the one who makes the case that what the Fire Nation is doing is wrong, but that's a legitimate way for someone to be influenced. I don't think the fact that she's going to rethink things due in part to her boyfriend's opinions automatically means her opinions are flimsy and only influenced by others. Like I said it seems to me that the writer's did tell me that this is someone who goes from not caring about anything to seeing the point in caring about something, which makes her a different person than she was earlier on. I agree it doesn't say for sure what decision she'd make in the same situation again depending on the person, but the introduction of the unknown is enough development for me.
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The level of attention Mai got would have been fine if they had given her the right kind of attention. The Beach was an opportunity for that. Her actions at the end aren't really confusing: if anything it's the fact that they're so simple to interpret (Boyfriend >>> Little Brother) that make fans like the OP tag her as shallow. Now the writers may have been intending to depict her as that but I don't think so.
Azula lost Mai's loyalty the moment she started demanding it but until then, she was given it freely. It's not a question of who aske Mai for loyalty but who she chose to be loyal to. (Unlike Ty Lee who isn't given the choice until the very last minute.) Mai has always been the independent minion with her loyalty to Azula all the more assured because it's given so freely. Like I said earlier, it's not until she is with Zuko that she starts fearing Azula.
Actually I think you made a point elsewhere that Mai is attracted to Zuko's passion, his penchant for pointless gestures. She's been attracted to him for so long, and he has changed so much in the way he sees the world, that it's hard to say what other than his personality and looks that attract her. I think one can argue that Mai finds people opposite of her in nature attractive - fiery Azula and flighty Ty Lee. I don't think she's flimsy but she does strike me as someone comfortable with letting a trusted other be her own moral centre.
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Make a difference to what? I realize that it's not necessary for the plot, the the Bei Fongs don't turn up again, but it's a TV series. "Filler" implies that it's like a foam peanut packing the actual object. An episode about this character is just as legitimate as any other episode. It's a stand-alone episode rather than moving along the central plot, but that doesn't make it disposable mean that it took time away from telling us something about a more minor character. We know as much about Mai as they thought they needed to tell us. If they'd had a story about Mai they thought they should tell I think they would have told it.
The level of attention Mai got would have been fine if they had given her the right kind of attention.
I'm just not comfortable with saying it's the wrong kind of attention because there are fans who think she's shallow. There's fans who think lots of characters suck. I don't think the writers were wrong for not giving those viewers whatever it was they were looking for from Mai, which might even not be in character for her. Just as some people look at Mai and think she's just shallowly into her boyfriend, other viewers didn't get that at all from TBR. Sometimes the gestures are going to read louder than any context.
I don't think she's flimsy but she does strike me as someone comfortable with letting a trusted other be her own moral centre.
Possibly, but is that a problem for where she is at the end of the story? She's not being presented as a person who acts out of a strong moral center, she's shown as somebody apathetic and believing in the Fire Nation to somebody who throws her lot in with the rebel Prince Zuko. She doesn't switch sides via the same route as Zuko or Iroh or Ty Lee. Love for Zuko is a catalyst in which Zuko's love for her is not.
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Audience interpretation is the most valid assessment of a story. It's no good Rowling telling us Harry is a hero if fans have a problem with his use of an Unforgivable. The same with Mai. Of course there's total bias which is easy to spot. But when canon supports a perspective then it should be acknowledged. And actually, it's the "boyfriend >>> brother" reading that is the most direct reading. A deeper, more meaningful reading is precisely that - a deeper one, based a lot on our biased speculation. Which is why though I enjoy her character, I can't dismiss criticsm of Mai.
Is that a problem for where she is at the end of the story? No, it's not. But a good story isn't just about the destination, it's also about the journey.
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Trie audience interpretation is important, but it's hardly uniform, and liking a character or not isn't the same thing as misunderstanding them. I've heard plenty of people who dislike Mai without misunderstanding her, so I don't think that's a flaw in the author. Likewise I think JKR wrote Harry Potter as a hero by her standards and a lot of people agree with that--including his use of Unforgivable. On 24 the writers spend a lot more time making their case for why Jack is a hero for torturing people and I still don't buy it.
Which is why though I enjoy her character, I can't dismiss criticsm of Mai.
I think there's plenty of valid criticism to make of Mai as a person. I just don't think it necessarily translates into a failure of her writers. They showed her doing things, they didn't really strongarm us into telling us how we had to interpret her. She's blatantly bad in the beginning and has a good moment helping the good guys in the end. Some people don't think that moment makes up for her being a villain before, and don't respect that she's doing it to save her boyfriend. Other people are just fine with it. But having different judgments about a character's actions doesn't imo mean that the writers didn't do it right. I don't think they meant to write her as somebody who's a complete good guy at the end of the series and don't think it would necessarily be better if she was.
Also I don't agree that Mai simply thinking that boyfriend>>>brother is the most direct reading since that's not what I got when I watched it. Zuko is more important to her than Tom Tom, imo, but I still think that reducing the two actions to only that ignores all of the stuff we do get about Mai elsewhere. Her apathy seems a little too highlighted to me to not be more important than her feelings about individual members of her family.
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Like the point about what matters more the end of the story or the journey, I think it's interesting how different aspects of the audience can see the same thing, get the same meaning but leave with different levels of... satisfaction?