Truth in different scenes

[sistermagpie]

I dreamed last night I went to Bristol. And I was staying with the Stantons (as in Will's family from TDiR). In the dream Will's village was just a different part of the city from where the University was, and though I was supposed to be leaving soon I was about to walk the straight line from the large cathedral which was apparently near the Stanton's farm, straight down to the Christmas Steps. I think I was kicking myself for not going there more often when I lived there--before I woke up and remembered where Will actually lived in the book. Anyway, it was nice to be in Bristol again-wonder how it's changed since I was there.

I went to see Barbara Cook on Friday night. It's sad that I will never be as cool as this woman is in her 70s. She talked about being part of the "Golden Age of Musicals" and wondered if we were in a Golden Age now--because hey, she didn't know then. Maybe we are! She also told some great Elaine Stritch stories. Mostly she just sang incredibly well. Oh, and she did one song from Fiorello where she explained that she'd had to contact the lyricist and ask he write new lyrics because she didn't think the old ones would go over well. She shared the old lyrics afterwards, though:

"And if he likes me
What does it matter if he strikes me?
I'll fetch him his slippers with my arm in a sling
Just for the privilege of wearing his ring."

Yeah, it was probably good he changed them. The two of them were both just sort of horrified at how clever those lyrics seemed when they first heard them. I find people like Barbara Cook just make me incredibly jealous over their lives and the way they spend their time and who they know and what they create.

Also there are some great discussions of showing vs. telling, and it's led me to think about the way the Slytherins are presented--yes, I know everyone is shocked. You were all expecting yet another long treatise on Fudge, no doubt. This is kind of a sum up of things I've said recently in other places, so it's probably repetitive, but I figured I'd put it out there under this one point.

ajhalluk points out how telling is an important part of mysteries, particularly when there's a difference between what we're told and what we're shown. I do agree that HP seems to be a mystery and work by those rules. JKR, to me, seems very precise about how she gives information, and knowing how readers are likely to respond to information given in a certain way. This is why, to me, it just seems like it can't be a mistake that some pivotal scenes involving Slytherins don't jibe with Harry's view of them, even though Harry's view is adopted by most readers. I once did a post called "Whatever Happened to Baby Draco?" and while I can't completely remember how I was comparing that character to Jane Hudson (from Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?) I think JKR shares the writer of that book/screenplay's knowledge that people see what they want to see, and it can be used against them. There's an X-files episode that uses this wonderfully too--Signs and Wonders, from Season 7. After that episode I remember having huge arguments on atxfa because people just refused to believe that the guy who was superficially repulsive because he was sexist and ignorant could be the victim while the guy who was literally Satan was the reasonable fellow who spouted all the things they believe in.

Harry obviously has a hard time being objective when it comes to Draco or Snape. I mean, at the end of OotP he's absolutely livid at Snape, despite the fact that objectively, Snape's been, imo, his best ally. He wanted Harry told the information Harry should have known, he picked up on Harry's need for help and went right off to actively stop Sirius getting killed. Not only does Harry miss that Snape is taking care of things (which it seemed obvious he was doing), he blames him for being involved in something he was actively trying to stop. Granted one could say that Snape's taunting Sirius for not doing anything earlier contributed to Sirius' frustration at being shut up in the house, but Snape's actions are completely beyond reproach at the end-yet he's still the one Harry focuses his anger on. So that's a scene where we're told flat-out that Harry can see guilt in Snape when he knows he's innocent.

With Malfoy two scenes that come to mind are the Buckbeak scene and the B&B scene. It just strikes me as interesting how these scenes are so misrepresented by fans, despite their having read the actual scene. In people's memories, or at least in their descriptions, Draco's actions become far more aggressive, Hagrid's warnings far more clear. It becomes about Malfoy frightening an animal and getting hurt when the animal lashes out. The thing is, I've no doubt JKR would be quite capable of writing that scene. But she didn't write it. Instead what *she* has Malfoy do is approach cautiously, pet the animal and then say the wrong thing and get attacked. That fact quickly gets lost in the anger over whether Buckbeak should be executed for what happened, just as Hagrid's irresponsible teaching gets lost in the sympathy for him losing his pet and Malfoy's cocky blunder gets blown up into wild misbehavior in his vindictive glee at seeing Buckbeak executed for it. This is part of what makes me so uncomfortable reading PoA, is that it feels like a real nasty thing happening to a kid gets swept aside in favor of sympathetic cooing over a man and his big feathered dog. I don't agree Buckbeak should be executed, but it's still weird to me that the entire book turns on defending a principle that's based on a misrepresentation of the facts.

In the B&B scene I was recently going through it based on the very common description of that scene as Lucius the somewhat indulgent father who gets tired of his son constantly whining about Harry and Hermione and demanding things. Again, JKR would have no trouble writing this scene. We see Dudley play the part of the whining kid demanding presents very well, and Vernon, though indulgent, can lose his temper with anyone. The main proof that Draco enjoys the same power Dudley does at home is his early line at Madam Malkin's: He says he's going to bully his parents into buying him a broom. For some reason Malfoy, who's usually considered a completely unreliable source of information, is telling the truth about that, despite the fact that the very first thing that happens in the B&B scene is that statement is proven to be a lie. Draco comes into the store and reaches for something, Lucius orders him to "touch nothing" and Draco...obeys.

In fact, Draco obeys throughout the scene. He's mostly silent-especially when Lucius starts talking. His line, "I thought you were going to buy me a present," is in response to Lucius telling him not to touch anything-i.e., "Why can't I touch anything?" When Lucius says he will only buy him the broom Draco doesn't argue the point--even though he seemed to have honestly thought Lucius said otherwise. Most kids, even a non-bratty kid, might have argued that. Anyway, he does go off on a rant about Potter, but he's looking at skulls as he says it--iow, he's not throwing a tantrum or demanding more from Lucius, he's just jabbering to himself. Lucius tells him he's heard it before, quells him with a look, and suggests it's imprudent to act like you hate Harry. Draco again does not argue, does not whine in his defense. He's not being a wonderful child, but so far he hasn't surpassed any of our main characters for whining ability. He remains quiet throughout Lucius' talk with Mr. B.

He speaks next after Lucius is finished when he asks Mr. B (it seems), "Can I have that?" pointing to the Hand of Glory. This is the one moment where Draco literally asks for something in the store, though he may just be asking to see it since he seems to be talking to Mr. B and not Lucius, who doesn't respond. (He is disobeying his order not to touch anything.) This is where the grade issue comes in--NOT in response to Draco's whining about Potter, which stopped long ago, but to Mr. Borgin's fawning over Draco. The first part is for Mr. B, telling him his attempt at flattery has failed, then he takes a shot at Draco. Draco begins to sulkily defend himself, but gets only so far as, "It's not my fault. All the teachers have favorites. That Hermione Granger..." before Lucius stops him with the withering, "I'd have thought you'd be ashamed to have a Muggleborn girl beat you in every exam." Draco looks "abashed and angry" and says not a word for the rest of the scene. Now, if Lucius is indeed sickened by Draco's attempts to blame others for his troubles, that would be ironic, as he himself as complaining about Arthur Weasley and speaking with Mr. B about the exact same problem with the Wizarding World Draco complains about--the wrong people in power, blood counting for nothing.

So looking at the scene objectively, say if you were Mr. Borgin, you'd have a kid come into your store--a store chock full of things that would appeal to 12-year-old boys. Dudley Dursley would probably have walked out with half the merchandise. This kid walks in, starts to pick up an object, is ordered to stop and does, albeit with the comment that he thought he was allowed to get something. He starts to mutter about some kid in his class he's jealous of and his father cuts him off. You speak with his father. Afterwards, the kid asks to see something. You show it to him, his father is displeased and insults the kid's grades. The kid blames his grades (whatever they are) on teacher favoritism and starts to bring up another kid he seems envious of, and his father shuts him up again by reminding him that by adding the racist factor, the kid's got even more of a loser. Then the kid stays quiet and doesn't touch anything while you haggle with his father. They both leave.

So again I just have to ask--if surely JKR would have been capable of Draco demanding everything in the store, and Lucius getting it for him, and being generally being very badly behaved, why does she instead merely show us his anger and jealousy at Harry and Hermione, his failure to live up to the standards set by his father, and leave him perfectly well-behaved beyond that? Really his worst crime in the scene is looking sullen and bad-tempered. Draco's Mudblood comment to Hermione seems to naturally come out of this scene, but it surprises me that people also assume that Hermione's comment that Draco's daddy bought his way onto the team must also be obviously true, when didn't we just have a scene of Lucius appearing, to me at least, to enjoy Draco's failures? I'm not saying he couldn't have rigged the team selection, he certainly could have, and he did obviously buy the brooms. But the B&B scene would be the perfect place to set up Lucius being more like the Dursleys in being eager to give Draco any advantage he could because he deserved it, and instead it shows us a father who takes no notice of his son's claims of bias. Plus, it even has Lucius say flat out what he is going to buy: a racing broom. Why doesn't he say something like, "I said I would buy racing brooms for your team." Okay, you wouldn't want to give that away and ruin the later surprise, but he could have left the "present" Draco refers to as more ambiguous by having Lucius say he is getting Draco a present, it's just not something found in B&B (hint hint: it's a position as Seeker!). Instead he specifically says he's getting him a broom, period, and nothing more. What the scene does set up is Draco's react to Hermione, and Lucius' hatred of Arthur.

It's just really, isn't this scene a bit of a let-down given what we've been given to believe about Malfoy? Shouldn't he be throwing far more fabulous tantrums and laughing with the old man about killing people? Shouldn't Lucius be agreeing with Draco that it's grossly unfair that Harry gets this treatment and teachers have unworthy favorites? Is it really just for plot purposes that Draco, who taunted Harry for not having a family to go home to first year, winds up staying at Hogwarts for Xmas, thus denying yet another image of himself Malfoy put out? I don't know, to me this seems like it must be there for a reason, leading to some conclusion showing that true judgment is not based on superficial pleasantness, and that taking what people say, even about themselves, for granted is often a mistake.

Comments

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

Now I’m kind of morbidly curious about a Fudge treatise. ;)

But excellent points, as ever. I won’t comment of the Hagrid-Buckbeak thing-I seem to be constantly discussing said incident on people’s ljs lately- except to say I agree with you.

The B&B scene is particularly interesting imo, since this is the only Draco-Lucius interaction we get in canon. It certainly does seem to contradict everything Draco has said about his relationship with his father. Some people like to use it as the basis for their abused!Draco theories, but I wouldn’t take it that far. What I got from the scene is that Lucius is the type of overly demanding parent who places great importance on their kid being perfect, and fulfilling their expectations, more so than on ‘inconsequential’ matters like said child’s feelings. He also appears quite strict, and manages to keep Draco in line with great ease. Canonically, the only instance of Draco defying his father is that he doesn’t bother concealing his dislike for Harry (and doesn’t that open up all sorts of slashy intriguing discussion). And of course, there is the casual insulting of Draco in front of a stranger-what type of mental pressure does that put Draco under? Especially since he so obviously looks up to his father.

So, no, I don’t see Draco spoiled-at least not by Lucius (Narcissa might be the one sending him all those sweets, and insisting he go to Hogwarts instead of Durmstrang-which is why all those ‘emotionally distant’ Narcissa characterizations bother me). He is certainly privileged, and afforded all sorts of perks that his family’s wealth and name would afford-but he is expected to leave up to certain standards that go hand in hand with the privileges.

Your post gave me a glimmer of hope that Rowling might do something different with the Slytherin characterizations. After all, she is no stranger to the ‘appearances are deceiving’ method-most obviously, of course, in PS, with Snape and Quirell.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love the distinction between spoiled and privileged-people do seem to confuse the two when of course having the best of everything doesn't necessarily=getting everything you want.

The B&B scene is particularly interesting imo, since this is the only Draco-Lucius interaction we get in canon.

Yes, which is why it amuses me when people explain how this interaction is maybe a-typical and we're seeing Lucius when he's particularly frustrated after a long day of Draco bullying him. I mean, you've got one scene to establish the characters, you do one that establishes them. Nobody reads chapter 1 of PS/SS thinking this is just a bad day at the Dursleys, it's establishing Harry's life.

I think it's more about what it doesn't say than what it does. It tells us Draco's telling us is a fantasy. Even if JKR was eventually going to reveal horrific abuse, it would definitely be a bad idea to reveal it in Chapter 2, Book 2--that would have neutralized Malfoy from then on. I mean, there are certain situations where Harry can't help but identify with a person--the Pensieve scene shows us one, and I think Malfoy being literally beaten by an adult when he was 12 would be another.

What's more interesting is what we get, a scene that's not out-and-out abusive and that Harry would be pre-disposed to look at assuming Malfoy deserves whatever he's getting. If I were a kid seeing that scene I suspect I'd just come away with the idea that Mr. Malfoy was one of those scary, strict parents, not that there was anything I needed to worry about with Malfoy. (Actually, if somebody was trying to put forth the idea of abuse it seems to me that Malfoy's personality offers a lot better starting place than this scene!)

I guess this is why it confuses me when people seem to feel that any surprise in Malfoy is out of the question, because it would take too much focus on Malfoy and Harry getting to know him and the books aren't about that. But to me it seems like I just keep expecting/hoping Malfoy will get the same type of treatment other characters get. The only person we get as a real person is Harry, and then Ron and Hermione. Everyone else is an archetype, sort of. But they get deepened when Harry learns something about them--like Luna spends a book being weird, then in one scene says her mom's dead and she gets picked on: Bam. Luna's something more. If somebody had suggested we know all we know about Neville back in PoA that would probably seem equally impossible since the book isn't about Neville, but how much did it really take? Just Dumbledore saying something and one scene where Harry goes to St. Mungo's at Xmas. Harry knows very little about most people, especially Malfoy, so there's no reason he can't get a scene like Neville, Snape and Luna have gotten, that surprises us.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but people trying to rationalize Lucius' behaviour in that scene with 'he was just having a bad day' boggles my mind. I take it it's mostly people who dislike Draco?

I agree with the other, non-Trio characters being archetypes to an extent. And I would love it if Rowling bothered to give Draco a third dimention, but I'm unconvinced she will. Her like/dislike of a character seems to influence the way she writes them to the point where you can literaly feel her trying to emotionally manipulate the reader's feelings at certain scenes...mostly, every other scene that Neville or Hagrid have.

Not that I am outright discounting anything. Rowling may still surprise me in that regard.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hope she does, but I remain wary for the same reasons you do. Especially when she really does seem to see certain characters as a litmus test for the character of the reader-if you don't like Hagrid or Neville it's suspect. If you like Draco then...well, let's just hope it's because you have a crush on Tom Felton because the alternatives are too awful to contemplate!

[shusu.livejournal.com]

It would be interesting if Harry turned into what he thinks Draco is.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Oh, wouldn't that be something! He already starts off OotP taunting somebody.:-) Honestly, I thought in the Pensieve scene that a lot of what Harry was repelled by in James might be something other people would recognize in Harry.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Yes! I mean, this is what is FUN as a writer. Unreliable narrators. And when the bad guy (or crazy person) is *right*.

Like that scene in Umbridge's office -- Snape making it clear that Umbridge misused the Veritaserum and he won't give her any more. Telling Crabbe (or Goyle?) to let go of Neville. And then covering up for Harry after he blurts out the info -- if it had been anyone but Snape, Harry would have been able to recognize that Snape was on his side. In fact, what makes this scene so fabulous is that it's the first time when we see Snape in his usual ascerbic form and we are entirely aware that it's an act.

And the B&B scene ... I think one of the problems with "abused!Draco" is how people are defining abuse. The commenter above (and I am not singling her out, because this is an argument I have seen by many folks in many places) says this is not a abuse but rather the type of overly demanding parent who places great importance on their kid being perfect, and fulfilling their expectations, more so than on ‘inconsequential’ matters like said child’s feelings. He also appears quite strict, and manages to keep Draco in line with great ease. [...] And of course, there is the casual insulting of Draco in front of a stranger-what type of mental pressure does that put Draco under? Especially since he so obviously looks up to his father.

Now whether or not is this is abuse is not only in the eye of the beholder and how she defines good parenting, but also in terms of the child experiencing this parenting in the first place. Plenty of kids *thrive* being brought up under this kind of pressure; others who are temperamentally more fragile collapse under it. I would argue that it is certainly not bringing out the best in Draco, for example.

So rather than quibble semantics, I will just say that personally, I think that being subjected to the kind of all-or-nothing thinking ("you must excel or you are no better than a thief") that Lucius displays, and having third parties (who are considered your social inferiors, no less) enlisted in belittling you in public is a crappy way to grow up. Whether you consider this emotional abuse or not. Legally it is not considered abuse, but psychologically it may be an entirely different matter.

Also, Draco is not the only kid in HP to grow up in a really crappy environment. Some people, for example, see the Weasley environment as harsh on the kids (certainly Percy seems miserable), since Molly's temper is as exuberant as her affection. And Harry's experience at the Dursley's, or Neville's with his grandmother (and Uncle Algie!) are two more examples. (But it's really crucial that in the last two cases the parental figures are not the same people entrusted with the child's guardianship. Harry and Neville have a rough time of it, no question, but they do not have to deal with the specific mindfuck that Draco faces.)

Two more examples of characters with unhappy homelives: Sirius, who ends up renouncing his family entirely and creating a surrogate one with the Marauders and James's parents. (Although this example doesn't hold because his behavior in canon is so uniformly commendable. Those Marauder-era flashbacks of him rescuing drowning kittens were especially crucial in helping us to understand how fundamentally different the good guys are from the bad guys in the HP universe.) And of course Snape.

Every single one of these characters is obviously impacted by what's happening at home: Harry's stubborn self-reliance (and self-righteousness), Neville's shyness and insecurity, Sirius's ... well, I do not even know where to begin with psychoanalyzing Sirius. And Snape -- when Harry breaks into Snape's mind, he doesn't see images of Death Eater torture or being branded with the Dark Mark. He sees Snape's painful childhood memories. Because the things that happened to Snape when he was young were what hurt him the most (hence "Snape's Worst Memory"). This is true for many people.

So. I don't see why if we can understand other characters with reference to their family situation, when we try to do the same thing with Draco we are being angsty fangirls.

As Sirius and Remus point out, a lot of people are jerks when they're 15.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Bwahahaha! Sorry, now I'm just remembering that dramatic kitten-rescue of Sirius.' If only we all knew boys like that!

I wonder if one of the reasons I latch onto Draco is that what Lucius does to him in that scene literally is one of my hot buttons. Once I was in an acting class and the teacher did several excercises trying to get me to be, like, passionate instead of logical and calm. It was torturous for me, but I guess it's just in my nature to not want to be emotional on important issues. So I had to do this speech on something and I was saying something about kids and she kept poking around, asking me questions about me being treated this way. And I did remember probably every time in my life when I was treated this way and hated it, but it still wasn't getting me emotional because I was over it for myself.

Then she started asking me about seeing other kids treated this way and I was like BASTARDSSSS!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!! Like when I worked in the store and parents would do like Lucius does--one father came in with his son and was looking for a book for a very good reader--that was a birthday present. Then he needed one for a Below Average Reader and he looks down at his 8-year-old son, who hung his head in shame. Grrrrrr. And btw, he was totally reading at grade level--no surprise. But hey, why pass up a chance to label your son as Below Average. Not like he'll internalize that label forever.

So to me it's like, if that's how Lucius talks to and about his son then I can't imagine Draco not feeling like dirt all the time. There's no reason for Lucius to talk to him like that, especially not just for kicks, as he's doing in the scene. Add to that the fact that Draco worships this man and thinks everything he says is good and true--of course he's the kid he is. I think it's incredibly important that Harry never sees the Dursleys as family, and that Neville, too, has real, loving parents he can imagine somewhere.

So yeah, I think everybody is basically the product of their personality+their environment. I don't see anything in Draco's personality that's corrupt in itself-he might have grown up quite happily in the Weasley household while Percy might have made a less obnoxious Malfoy than Draco does. In the end each kid is stuck with the personality he formed to get through his homelife and some kids have more stress in that life than others and it shows--Snape, Sirius and Harry, for sure, and others very possibly.

It's also possibly kind of funny that the school has a DE for a teacher all year and the one student who probably told everybody the man seemed like a psycho was Draco. If Harry didn't dislike Malfoy himself, would he have been more wary of Moody?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

I don't see anything in Draco's personality that's corrupt in itself-he might have grown up quite happily in the Weasley household while Percy might have made a less obnoxious Malfoy than Draco does.

Wow. I've been for a long time trying to imagine Draco being in Ron's place while Ron in Draco's, as I'm very interested in what's internal to Draco (most likely the drama queen/entertain the crowd bit, which he shouldn't have picked up from neither Lucius nor Narcissa) and what are simply products of his homelife experience. But every time I even tried to imagine it my mind boggled up because the Malfoys and the Weasleys are just so different. I think the only resemblance would be how both Lucius and Arthur are bigots with deep-rooted biases, and that Narcissa and Molly are the ones showing more interest in their child/ren's welfare. I definitely think Percy would have made a son Lucius is more proud of though-- he has the sort of attitude towards authority that would please Lucius more than Draco does.

OK Draco Weasley (LOL).. that's see.. I think DW would be spreading Muggle-friendly ideas (or whatever it is that Arthur believes in), looks down his nose at Ron Malfoy (yes I think he'd keep his arrogance) because RM sucks and is the 'wrong sort'. I don't think Harry would've liked him, because he would appear like a male Hermione, only louder and even more annoying :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Actually, I was picturing Draco Weasley as being more like the twins. He'd come up with lots of plans and jokes and probably put on shows when he was little. Of course he'd definitely look down on Ron Malfoy, probably doing imitations of him to great affect.

He might be more dangerous, actually, because his schemes might actually work and he'd help the twins, who are already menaces. I think his attention-getting would probably be even more pronounced in a big family, but since the Weasleys would give him some positive feedback he might not be as nasty.

Ron Malfoy...oh, poor Ron. He might come across stupider than Draco--or at least in a different way. I imagine him being a real stuffed shirt, just sort of grimly following Lucius' views on everything. He probably wouldn't be shoving himself into the spotlight, but maybe some of his problems with resentment and wanting more attention would be worse. Or better--I mean, perhaps being an only child would change that part of Ron's personality.

He sometimes seems to defeated in OotP. He might be truly sad living with Lucius. I'm really not sure if he'd be all that nasty as a Malfoy, or if he'd just sort of blend into the background like Dorian.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Actually, I was picturing Draco Weasley as being more like the twins. He'd come up with lots of plans and jokes and probably put on shows when he was little.

Ouch, and I would've frowned at the horrid sight of Weasley Trio, funny how that works.

I think his attention-getting would probably be even more pronounced in a big family, but since the Weasleys would give him some positive feedback he might not be as nasty.

Agreed! I actually think Draco Weasley would've been a happier kid than Ron Weasley for the same reason. Draco strives for attention and approval, which I believe he'll get in the Weasley house with his outgoing personality.

Ron Malfoy...oh, poor Ron.

Ron Malfoy would probably be the gloomiest kid in the whole school. Unlike Draco, he hasn't the sort of built-in stamina that would help him withstand Lucius' harshness, and seeks out other sources(like his housemates)to get his self-esteem back.

I'm really not sure if he'd be all that nasty as a Malfoy

I really can't picture it either.. Perhaps, he'd be like a certain fanon!Draco stereotype-- secretly wishing he's friend with Harry Potter or part of any happy gang?

[fiera-316.livejournal.com]

Ouch, and I would've frowned at the horrid sight of Weasley Trio, funny how that works.

More like Weasley Quartet, looking at the way Ginny Weasley is turning out. *headdesk* And they somehow say Hogwarts is the safest place on the planet. ^^* But it would have its amusing moments

Ron on the other hand...yeah, I see the fanon!Draco stereotype which could stem from Ron Malfoy, but would he be likely to have friends like Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy? If not, he would turn into a (possibly) gloomier version of Theodore Nott, Slytherin loner. I can see that as well.

That's interesting, actually; what WOULD he be like with Draco's current friends?

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Then he needed one for a Below Average Reader and he looks down at his 8-year-old son, who hung his head in shame. Grrrrrr. And btw, he was totally reading at grade level--no surprise. But hey, why pass up a chance to label your son as Below Average. Not like he'll internalize that label forever.

You know what, it is stupid for me to waste bandwith this way, but I have to get this off my chest: WHAT A FUCKING BASTARD. Sometimes I think people should pass a test before being authorised to breed.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Sometimes I think people should pass a test before being authorised to breed.

I've always believed people should obtain a 'parenting license' before they go and give birth. I mean raising a child cannot be something less important and difficult than driving, can it? Not to mention if you mindfuck a child and turn them into psychopaths or at least morons who are really difficult to live with, it affects others too-- much like driving on the road.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

In my country, I know who'd be writing the breeding rules: the social-conservative bigots. Nobody ever lost votes by saying that the God-fearing make better parents, for instance. Or that the poor are ipso facto unworthy to breed.

There is nobody in this world I'd trust to write a breeding test.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

There is nobody in this world I'd trust to write a breeding test.

No. And that's probably why such test has never been and likely never will be written, because who will be trusted by all to write an objective breeding test?

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean thinking there's a need for breeding tests= you are a social-conservative bigots. I'm sure you would agree that MANY adults are obviously unfit to be parents, NOT because of their lack of religious belief or financial status, but because of their general attitude towards other human beings.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I wasn't thinking about religious zeal and/or fanatism, more about emotional maturity.

But you're right, it's not viable, in fact, it could be seen as a violation of human rights. This is why I said "sometimes I think". It's because some things make me snap.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately true.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

BTW, I suspect Draco might have turned out very much like Mafalda (the deleted cousin of Ron's) should he have been a muggle-born. With his tendency to be nosy and his love to impress..

[ljash.livejournal.com]

at the end of OotP he's absolutely livid at Snape, despite the fact that objectively, Snape's been, imo, his best ally.

I had never thought of it that way, but you're right: Snape is really Harry's best ally. That is, if you do a reading of Dumbledore (which I do now, I've been ruined :) where he's really not such a great guy and frequently screws up and is not as competent as he thinks he is. All of your points on what Snape has done are correct. He's still got this irrational hatred of Harry but that comes out in contempt and anger. It never seems to cloud his actions. Hell even Sirius was worse for Harry in OotP.

I'll have to go look at that again. Sometime. When I'm back from Midworld.


Also, very interesting Draco points. He wasn't a brat in B&B but could easily be seen that way through Harry's eyes, simply by being rich and expecting his father to get him things (which is not an extreme thing to assume if you're Draco). His father treated him poorly--I think Rowling meant for us to see Draco being treated poorly. Yet she did it in such a way that we don't have to then have more sympathy for Draco. It's more to show how the whole family is rotten. Or something. I don't quite know what she's up to with him. All of the writing seems to indicate no liking for him at all, with no hidden trap doors like Snape had where the audience can have a different opinion than Harry has.

Maybe she'll give him depth later. Maybe she'll give him something that makes us reinterpret all those previous scenes, the same way we're trying to make up a backstory on our own to reinterpret those scenes. But I really don't see it coming. I think we're on our own. Which is fine.

I don't think Lucius is abusive (though that does make for interesting stories sometimes), unless you stretch emotional abuse to include the sorts of things he does. I think he expects too much, rides Draco too hard perhaps. He's not encouraging and supportive, though he does probably reward Draco when he does something right. Then shows contempt when Draco doesn't live up to his expectations. That sort of thing.

I do still feel sorry for Draco, who seems to have no chance. But we'll see.

(I wanna read the next book whaaaa! :)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

who seems to have no chance. But we'll see.

eh. That's the very definition of underdog there. And people wonder where the sympathy comes from. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what's so interesting about the scenes, really, is that he's such a flat character and could very well stay that way, and yet in these two scenes where she could have gone totally OTT with him, the scenes are far more subdued than you'd think--in fact they're more subdued than people remember, and more subdued than they're remembered by characters.

So even if he's never given depth, I guess at least we'll have these more interesting possibilities free! Though I will definitely still feel like he had no chance.:-(

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Hey, Maggie... can I link to this from trip_jinx?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Sure!

*grins at Slytherin Mafia in icon*

[shadoedseptmbr.livejournal.com]

*waves* Hi! Flew in from the daily_snitch.

It's really fascinating to look at the contrasts in action and deed. When added to the fact that, in OotP, the Sorting Hat gives us cause to believe that the House divisions are dangerous, I think we are indeed leading up to an interesting conclusion. Not just about Draco but the Slytherins altogether. I totally agree that Harry's POV (as sympathetic as the reader is lead to be) isn't always trustworthy. Look at Crouch/Moody, whom Harry quite liked and whose actions, especially towards Draco, were rather foul on occasion.
The thing that interests me the most though, is what's going to trigger the switch for Harry, to stop him from associating Slytherins (and especially Snape, but perhaps also Draco) only with evil, so that the houses can work together? About the only reveal we haven't had in canon is what house Lily belonged to. It would have to be something along that line, something that shocking to him and his preconceptions, to do it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that Harry's POV (as sympathetic as the reader is lead to be) isn't always trustworthy. Look at Crouch/Moody, whom Harry quite liked and whose actions, especially towards Draco, were rather foul on occasion.

Right--and I'd love to think that was symbolic, that the ferret incident, which the Gryffs were primed to see as a sign that Moody was a good guy because he punished Malfoy for trying to hex Harry, was really a DE attacking Malfoy for not being loyal enough to Voldemort.:) This doesn't have to mean Draco becoming a hero, just not being the main bad guy.

I'm almost sure JKR was asked what house Lily was in and she said, "Gryffindor, of course." But I'm not a good source for JKR information. I can't imagine what would make Harry see Slytherin differently-I do feel like he has to see Malfoy differently specifically, because Malfoy IS Slytherin, really, and has been since his first scene when he said he'd be sorted there, just like his whole family. There's no point otherwise, it seems to me. It would be like Draco making peace with Gryffindor by striking up with Michael Corner (if he's in that house, I can't remember). But reading OotP I really did keep feeling like the groundwork was being made for this change. We definitely know Harry has to see Snape differently, since at this point he's angry at him for something he didn't even do. I hope we get more insight into Draco and Snape's relationship as well-I'd like to think they come as sort of a pair.:)

[kylandra.livejournal.com]

I don't have too much to say right now on the primary post, since I pretty much agree with a lot of it and I've already commented in some other threads (including, I think, a couple of yours). But I've been turning something over in my head and this twigged on it.

Right--and I'd love to think that was symbolic, that the ferret incident, which the Gryffs were primed to see as a sign that Moody was a good guy because he punished Malfoy for trying to hex Harry, was really a DE attacking Malfoy for not being loyal enough to Voldemort.:)

I really am wondering if that scene is going to end up being important later. What you've mentioned is an interesting possibility, and could be a good way of working within the framework of the scene as presented. I also keep thinking about the ferret thing and whether it ties in with the possible 'bridging the Slytherin gap' hints (like the Sorting Hat song in OotP).

See, ferrets aren't an animal, at least as far as I've seen, that are generally considered 'nasty' animals the way rats (Pettigrew) or even weasels (Ron) are. Not to mention that it doesn't quite have the sort of rich, snobby connotation that mink or ermine would have (those being related to ferrets).

Plus, JKR mentioned on her site somewhere that she partly chose Weasley for Ron's name because she's actually very fond of weasels and wanted to sort of work against their negative connotations. Now, it's interesting because weasels and ferrets are both of the same family -- Mustelidae. Also, if I remember correctly, Hermione's Patronus is an otter, which JKR also stated she'd like to be if she were an Animagus; otters (if my quick fact-checking is correct) are also Mustelidae. Rowling seems to be rather fond of this particular group of animals, it seems.

Now, I suppose she could just dislike ferrets while liking these other animals. Or she might not have even thought about them being related. But I just keep wondering if the link there has any significance whatsoever.

It's rather frustrating not being able to tell whether I'm perceptive or just plain silly, LOL.

Erm, sorry for taking up space in your journal, but that just reminded me of it. I've been really looking again at things, and I think you're right, it feels like there's some groundwork being laid down.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It does seem impossible to like mustelids and weasels-and have otters be your favorite animal (I think JKR has said that) and then dislike ferrets. Especially since ferrets are the ones that are pets and people who like ferrets just adore them. What's the big difference, really? They're all so much alike--otters are very playful, but so are ferrets.

I just feel like looking at the way things are set up it's too perfect to have put a DE in your school, play fair with the readers by alerting us that he's got DE tendencies by having him wildly mistreat a student, only using the audience's and the main character's prejudices to cover it up. Because it's Malfoy people are ready to believe he's a good guy.

In fact that scene goes right up there with the Buckbeak and B&B scenes I mentioned, because I'm surprised how often people in putting Draco down will repeat how he deserved to be bounced around in ferret form because HE ATTACKED HARRY FROM BEHIND!!! Not only does he get attacked from behind (and ahead!) later in the book, but he *didn't* get punished for doing that at all. Moody himself was planning to do far worse to Harry. He was attacked because Moody was literally acting as a DE torturing an enemy and...nobody noticed.

being related. But I just keep wondering if the link there has any significance whatsoever.

It's rather frustrating not being able to tell whether I'm perceptive or just plain silly, LOL.

I definitely know how you feel there!

Erm, sorry for taking up space in your journal, but that just reminded me of it. I've been really looking again at things, and I think you're right, it feels like there's some groundwork being laid down.

Not at all-I appreciate it!

[lindra.livejournal.com]

I do not see Lucius as particularly harsh. I do not see Lucius as abusive. Lucius is Lucius, and he would've had a rather grim life as well, and a rather calculated, cynical way of looking at his surroundings, viewing them [out of necessity] for only their practical value and what can be gained. I think Lucius sees nothing wrong with his methods of parenting; Draco to be malleable is far more important than Draco's own emotional development. I suspect Lucius is one of those 'progressive' fathers that sees the need for tight control and tight surveilance. Draco may be good at schoolwork, yes. Draco may be unfairly disadvantaged by House favouritsm. That does not mean he possesses the kind of intelligence that Lucius requires in The Malfoy Heir - cunning, practical, analytical and a fairly mature mindset.

The way I see it, there are numerous possibilities.
A. Lucius is deliberately inhibiting Draco to give him a harsh view of the world - as someone said earlier, many children thrive under that kind of pressure. The Malfoy Heir, given his position, would've been expected to be one of these. And I should continue but I can't, so I will come back later. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think this is what intrigues me about the scene...because if we'd seen Draco just acting like Dudley with Lucius acting like Vernon or Petunia, there would be nothing to wonder about with the Malfoys. We'd just have a copy of the Dursleys. This scene, I think, tells us that there's other things going on, that Draco does have troubles--but at the same time it's not giving us a Lucius who's beating him with a stick while twirling his moustache.

To me the scene is great for the way it can give Harry satisfaction when he sees Malfoy put down, without really challenging his impressions of Malfoy. Perhaps we'll never learn anything surprising about Draco, but it's nice that this scene sets up that we don't really know him. That, I guess, is why it surprises me when people use it to confirm Harry's impression and skip over the parts that contradict it, or subtly change the scene to make it fit just a little better.

Bristol

[(Anonymous)]

Bristol's really just beautiful at the moment, thanks, and everywhere you look you can see something green. Just thought you might like to know...

Re: Bristol

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

:-DDD

Thanks--that does make me very happy to know!

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Reading this comments page makes me want to go jump off a bridge.

It's one thing if people have an entirely different reading of the scene and Lucius's character. I mean, I don't agree with them, but they are certainly entitled to a different interpretation.

But for people to read all this essentially the same way I do, BUT then insist that this kind of behavior isn't mistreating or harmful to your child because it does not fit their personal definition of "abuse" (which does not the psychological definition, btw!!) is just fucking killing me, honestly. :(

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, I think that would probably be a good topic for discussion in itself. Because I've come to realize--mostly from talking about characters like Draco--that the word "abuse" tends to get thrown around without being defined in the same way for everyone. So often I've felt, especially in FAP discussions, that people just want to say, "but it's not abuse" because "abuse" is the magic word that makes it bad. I don't know a lot about psychology, but my instinct says this kind of thing's pretty bad!

As I said above, I remember very well all the times an adult treated me that way because it was really painful. I really can't imagine speaking that way to a kid--it really would, to me, be a lot like slapping a kid in the face. I can't imagine growing up with that on a regular basis. And I was probably the kind of kid that would have just withdrawn and gotten away from that parent as soon as possible, cutting off any affection I might have felt. But Draco seems to be exactly the opposite kind of kid, who's driven to respect Lucius for being powerful etc. I guess that's why it always surprises me when people say things like, "Well obviously he's not abused because would an abused kid praise his parent all the time?"

And I think..uh, yes. I don't think that's very odd at all. Particularly when you figure Lucius is supposed to be someone who was a high-ranking DE who tortures and murders people. Yes, Harry's very brave and hates him and is defiant to him. But imagine this guy with an infant, and then a toddler-particularly this one. It doesn't mean that Lucius couldn't ever do something good or make Draco happy--maybe that's a problem too, that people assume an abuse parent is just relentlessly cruel when a mixture is probably far more dammaging. It seems like Lucius would be literally God in that house (and wizard kids are homeschooled as well)-and at Hogwarts too. I can't imagine Draco ever really imagining a world where Lucius didn't exist or wasn't watching. I don't find Lucius' involvement with Hogwarts all that excessive based on what we see, but I do think that little things like the article he sends Draco about the Weasleys fit the idea that Lucius is still exerting control from afar. There's a reason Draco knows what his father thinks about everything that happens at school. I wouldn't be surprised if Draco had to write regular, formal letters with his progress and other information.

I guess it's also kind of related to the idea that Draco's personality is the personality of a strictly spoiled child who's ever gotten everything he's ever wanted when to me he seems like he probably fits the pattern of somebody mistreated. I feel like a child psychologist would flag him immediately. Also the way Draco's always talking about him. People tend to just describe how this reflects badly on Draco--that he can't think for himself. But to me it seems like someone like Lucius would have been a big cause of that, dominating everything.

That's something I always remember from LUW, actually. There's a chapter where Aja describes Harry and Draco's opposite reactions to windows. Harry is always looking out of them and loves them because being shut up reminds him of the closet. He always wants to get out. Draco, by contrast, loves the dungeon because there are no windows and no windows means he might not be watched by Lucius or house elves or portraits. So while Harry is stuck in a cupboard wanting to get out, Draco's living in this huge house wishing for a tiny cupboard where he could have his own space.

Hmmmm..that was a big post for a basic agreement. It just seems like Draco's upbringing seems a lot like a sustained brainwashing that not only indoctrinated him into certain beliefs but made sure his behavior would put people off so nobody questioned it. Lucius was made to look so ineffective in the DoM, but this, to me, is the way he's really scary.