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There's something I see it all the time, really, about every character--in fandom, and it seems like it probably makes people crazy unnecessarily. Basically, I just see a lot where people will say they don't understand the hatred of a particular character. This surprises me because honestly, there's not a single character I can think of where I can't understand people not liking him or her--even if they are my favorite character. Not only is there just the basic idea that nobody appeals to everyone, but when people are talking about fictional characters they're often very clear about why they don't like a character.
Sometimes the explanation of why people don't like the character is included in the confusion. For instance: "I don't understand how somebody can hate Hagrid. I can understand not liking Sirius because he's an asshole, but saying Hagrid is a childish oaf and incompetent and irresponsible as a teacher? WTF? I just can't understand it."
Err...what's not to understand? The person seems to have explained it: they don't like Hagrid because they think he's a childish oaf and an incompetent and irresponsible teacher. Even if you love Hagrid, wouldn't you know what this referred to? I mean, I think Snape's the most interesting character in canon, but if somebody said, "I hate Snape! He's a pathetic bully still obsessed with high school and a horrible teacher who picks on 11-year-olds!" that might not be the way I'd describe the character if somebody asked about him but I still recognize Snape in there. Whether one describes him as "A complex character struggling with demons from the past that's defined by a significant moral choice," or the aforementioned pathetic bully depends on where the reader is coming from. They're both accurate. What you've really just said is, “I just don't understand why people don't like this person I like. I can understand not liking the characters I don't like, but how could you dislike a character I like?” Well, just take that character you don't like and transfer it to the one you do and you go it.:-)
This works in reverse too--with somebody saying, let's say, "How can anybody like Hagrid?" It's just that I think people often spend less time actually writing posts about what they like about characters that are probably the hero anyway--when people write those nowadays it's more than likely in response to negative posts. Sort of a, "Hey, remember the way canon works again?" But still it does work the same--there aren't too many characters where I can't see why people like the character either. In fact, even without reading explanations I think I get why most characters I don't like much have fans.
When a character really gets under your skin and you get frustrated every time they appear, or you just love a character to death, that's even more subjective. Nobody gets along with everyone. There are times when people mischaracterize a character and that I think you can argue against. You can argue through canon that the characters themselves don't hate your hated character or feel angered by him/her the way you are by showing their reactions. You can challenge their versions of why someone is doing something. You can show that someon's claim that a character is acting out of kindness is incorrect based on canon. I know I've certainly had people convince me to feel a different way about a character by explaining things about him/her so I understand him/her differently. But other times we're all looking at the same character and reacting differently. There's probably only so much you can do if a character embodies something that another person really doesn't like. There's a reason people hate Sirius or Ron or Draco or Harry or Hagrid or Molly and sometimes they're better at explaining exactly why that is than they are at explaining why they like a character. Of course, sometimes the explanation I hear might not be the same one the person thinks they're giving--mwahahaha!--but still. As painful as it is, I even get why people hate Frodo. Believe me, this is hard for me to do. But having heard the explanations more than once, I get why people hate both Frodo and Sam.
I've just been finding lately that it seems like whenever somebody holds up the "hater's" view of a character, even if it's a character that I myself like, and says, "This is ridiculous! Where are they getting this stuff?" I always find myself thinking it's perfectly accurate, if negative. Sometimes I don't even think it's negative, it's just an accurate description of the person that's not particularly flattering. Or maybe I think it's inaccurate but I can see where they're getting it anyway. It's like that description of the Marauders and Lily that put them in terms like, "Then there's the girl you think is really cool for standing up to them until you find out she's fucking one of them." Unflattering? Yes. Something everyone would say? No. Inaccurate? Not really. It's the way Lily would honestly come across to plenty of people. That's a perfectly reasonable description of her from what we've seen, even if it's obviously biased. Or the twins: They play practical jokes, many of which involve making someone sick or bleed. One person sees this as just funny; another person thinks it's sadistic. But what's to not understand, really, about each pov? You might not ever be able to agree with one pov or the other, but surely it's been explained. It's a joke, which is why it's funny. It's physical distress for pleasure, which is why it's sadism. It seems like to say one doesn't understand the other pov more means one just doesn't share it and doesn't want to share it, not that you don't understand it intellectually. That's often how I mean that expression when I say it, that I think it's crazy to think that way or whatever.
See, I think *all characters* (and all people) can be seen in a good light and a bad light, but it's important to remember that they are both right. Molly Weasley can be both a smothering harpy AND a brave and loving mother tiger in the same book to different people. Sirius can be a tragic figure tortured by Azkaban yet strong enough to fight his way out to protect his best friend's son AND the alcoholic jerk how never took responsibility for his own actions. Ron can be a lazy loser who whines and also a regular kid who's even better than his more special friends because of it. Harry can be insufferable and long-suffering at once. There are facts from canon, where we can figure out exactly what a character is doing and why in any scene. Then there are just the ways we as individuals react to that character and that's just subjective. How do you really argue against it? It would be like talking about any real person--if it was always so clear who we should like nobody would be voting for G.W.Bush.
It's not that I think it's pointless to post about how one feels about a character one way or the other--I like reading those posts a lot. It's good to get out the different views of the characters so one doesn't dominate. I think it's important to argue for accuracy, whether you think a character's being whitewashed or villified...well, maybe just because that drives me crazy. It's really only annoying when people insist on including an explanation of why other people disagree, usually one that reflects badly on the person. Things like: "People who like the character I don't like were bullies in school." "People who don't like the character I like don't have artistic temperaments."
I know I have always had a problem sounding like I like or dislike characters without meaning to. A lot of times, see, I just get interested in some aspect of the character and focus on that. Then somebody will say, "But what about X,Y and Z," and I'm all, "Oh yeah, I agree with that too." I just have a lot of experience being mistaken for being either a big fan of a character I don't like or somebody who hates a character I do like because of something that to me seems completely neutral. Like, I don't even think I'm offering any opinion because I'm trying to be all objective and get around my own biases.
Sometimes the explanation of why people don't like the character is included in the confusion. For instance: "I don't understand how somebody can hate Hagrid. I can understand not liking Sirius because he's an asshole, but saying Hagrid is a childish oaf and incompetent and irresponsible as a teacher? WTF? I just can't understand it."
Err...what's not to understand? The person seems to have explained it: they don't like Hagrid because they think he's a childish oaf and an incompetent and irresponsible teacher. Even if you love Hagrid, wouldn't you know what this referred to? I mean, I think Snape's the most interesting character in canon, but if somebody said, "I hate Snape! He's a pathetic bully still obsessed with high school and a horrible teacher who picks on 11-year-olds!" that might not be the way I'd describe the character if somebody asked about him but I still recognize Snape in there. Whether one describes him as "A complex character struggling with demons from the past that's defined by a significant moral choice," or the aforementioned pathetic bully depends on where the reader is coming from. They're both accurate. What you've really just said is, “I just don't understand why people don't like this person I like. I can understand not liking the characters I don't like, but how could you dislike a character I like?” Well, just take that character you don't like and transfer it to the one you do and you go it.:-)
This works in reverse too--with somebody saying, let's say, "How can anybody like Hagrid?" It's just that I think people often spend less time actually writing posts about what they like about characters that are probably the hero anyway--when people write those nowadays it's more than likely in response to negative posts. Sort of a, "Hey, remember the way canon works again?" But still it does work the same--there aren't too many characters where I can't see why people like the character either. In fact, even without reading explanations I think I get why most characters I don't like much have fans.
When a character really gets under your skin and you get frustrated every time they appear, or you just love a character to death, that's even more subjective. Nobody gets along with everyone. There are times when people mischaracterize a character and that I think you can argue against. You can argue through canon that the characters themselves don't hate your hated character or feel angered by him/her the way you are by showing their reactions. You can challenge their versions of why someone is doing something. You can show that someon's claim that a character is acting out of kindness is incorrect based on canon. I know I've certainly had people convince me to feel a different way about a character by explaining things about him/her so I understand him/her differently. But other times we're all looking at the same character and reacting differently. There's probably only so much you can do if a character embodies something that another person really doesn't like. There's a reason people hate Sirius or Ron or Draco or Harry or Hagrid or Molly and sometimes they're better at explaining exactly why that is than they are at explaining why they like a character. Of course, sometimes the explanation I hear might not be the same one the person thinks they're giving--mwahahaha!--but still. As painful as it is, I even get why people hate Frodo. Believe me, this is hard for me to do. But having heard the explanations more than once, I get why people hate both Frodo and Sam.
I've just been finding lately that it seems like whenever somebody holds up the "hater's" view of a character, even if it's a character that I myself like, and says, "This is ridiculous! Where are they getting this stuff?" I always find myself thinking it's perfectly accurate, if negative. Sometimes I don't even think it's negative, it's just an accurate description of the person that's not particularly flattering. Or maybe I think it's inaccurate but I can see where they're getting it anyway. It's like that description of the Marauders and Lily that put them in terms like, "Then there's the girl you think is really cool for standing up to them until you find out she's fucking one of them." Unflattering? Yes. Something everyone would say? No. Inaccurate? Not really. It's the way Lily would honestly come across to plenty of people. That's a perfectly reasonable description of her from what we've seen, even if it's obviously biased. Or the twins: They play practical jokes, many of which involve making someone sick or bleed. One person sees this as just funny; another person thinks it's sadistic. But what's to not understand, really, about each pov? You might not ever be able to agree with one pov or the other, but surely it's been explained. It's a joke, which is why it's funny. It's physical distress for pleasure, which is why it's sadism. It seems like to say one doesn't understand the other pov more means one just doesn't share it and doesn't want to share it, not that you don't understand it intellectually. That's often how I mean that expression when I say it, that I think it's crazy to think that way or whatever.
See, I think *all characters* (and all people) can be seen in a good light and a bad light, but it's important to remember that they are both right. Molly Weasley can be both a smothering harpy AND a brave and loving mother tiger in the same book to different people. Sirius can be a tragic figure tortured by Azkaban yet strong enough to fight his way out to protect his best friend's son AND the alcoholic jerk how never took responsibility for his own actions. Ron can be a lazy loser who whines and also a regular kid who's even better than his more special friends because of it. Harry can be insufferable and long-suffering at once. There are facts from canon, where we can figure out exactly what a character is doing and why in any scene. Then there are just the ways we as individuals react to that character and that's just subjective. How do you really argue against it? It would be like talking about any real person--if it was always so clear who we should like nobody would be voting for G.W.Bush.
It's not that I think it's pointless to post about how one feels about a character one way or the other--I like reading those posts a lot. It's good to get out the different views of the characters so one doesn't dominate. I think it's important to argue for accuracy, whether you think a character's being whitewashed or villified...well, maybe just because that drives me crazy. It's really only annoying when people insist on including an explanation of why other people disagree, usually one that reflects badly on the person. Things like: "People who like the character I don't like were bullies in school." "People who don't like the character I like don't have artistic temperaments."
I know I have always had a problem sounding like I like or dislike characters without meaning to. A lot of times, see, I just get interested in some aspect of the character and focus on that. Then somebody will say, "But what about X,Y and Z," and I'm all, "Oh yeah, I agree with that too." I just have a lot of experience being mistaken for being either a big fan of a character I don't like or somebody who hates a character I do like because of something that to me seems completely neutral. Like, I don't even think I'm offering any opinion because I'm trying to be all objective and get around my own biases.
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I'm rather new to LJ, so I still get excited about every comment that floats my way! Butt in any time.
You said: the circumstances of Sirius's death are probably Harry's best chance for self-awareness and growing up...
Oh, you don't know how much I want to believe that that will happen! It's what I would want, what I've always wanted for these characters - to actually grow up. (And I wanted that for Sirius, too, so I'm rather miffed she denied him that...) I'm just trying really, really hard not to get my hopes up, and I guess my "preparing for the worst" came across a bit more forceful than I meant. But each time one of the characters did something truly appalling (the twins' money schemes, for example, or the whole Montague issue, or the hexing on the train), I always expected cosmic payback to come to them, and for them to learn from it, and yet that ever actually happened.
The potential is there, but I don't expect it to be used anymore - no more than I expect JKR to actually appreciate the complexities of the characters she has created (or to respect her readers' intelligence).
I am desperately crossing my fingers that JKR can see this too.
Since, as you say, the evidence for JKR handling such potentially hopeful situations in canon prior to this hasn't been the greatest, I don't have much faith in her anymore, and her attitude in interviews isn't exactly helping. Somehow I doubt she'll suddenly miraculously improve with the next two books.
I'm curious - in the face of all the evidence, how do you manage to remain hopeful? And would you continue to read the books if you had to give up hope? I'm going to keep reading, but I'm not particularly looking forward to it.
Of course, my fearing the worst may be partly influenced by too many fics bringing Sirius back where apparently if someone dies because you were stupid and reckless, the thing to do is be stupid and reckless again, and then you'll be rewarded by them coming back to life.
I want Sirius back as much as the next person, but I don't want the consequences of his death to be negated - mostly because there's been a decided lack of consequences of any kind for the good guys in the books.
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I guess what mostly holds in my mind is that the series isn't over yet. Heck, I hardly count it as "almost over", just 'cause a lot of stuff usually happens in a single book. Harry and his friends' story isn't over yet; but in the story that IS over (which we've seen -- Marauder/Snape era), we've seen that cosmic payback comes (even if not direct retribution for enmity); only they don't always get a chance to learn from it. I mean, there is always potential in arrogance being a cause of death: in James's case, it was. Sirius never, ever learned from the mistakes caused by his rashness --> and from the Prank to Azkaban to death, he paid for it too. (Unless JKR plans to have Harry replay Sirius's life, then I think somethning should change.) Remus, so eager to be liked by his friends that he'd overlook harrasment to a Slytherin student, is now alone and not exactly in the most secure and pleasant position. I honestly can't imagine anyone not seeing a connection between Remus's silence during the Pensieve scene and the Trio's silence on Montague's injuries (except perhaps that Harry and Ron don't see it as a terrible thing, while Remus at least looked a little disapproving. But even so, Hermione did suggested the notion that telling was the right thing to do; even if she was instantly silenced and pacified, the notion was still brought up. Why would JKR even bring up such a notion if she were honestly trying to convince everyone that Harry and Ron's thought process is the right one? Why instill the doubt that it isn't, especially when the best defence to it was "More trouble for Umbridge", which not even that many kids would be pacified by? This leads me to doubt that the authorial voice is in fact NOT condoning the boys' apathy as the right reaction. Which of course gives me a bit more hope that JKR may see the connection and ... well, do something.)
So I suppose I would keep reading, probably just for the fact that I wouldn't allow myself to give up hope until tnhe epilogue at the very least. There would always be that feeling of "Just because nothing's happened yet, doesn't mean it won't!" I even feel a little guilty for sometimes feeling that since the Fred/George debt storyline was supposedly dealt with at the end of GoF, it means that JKR has just written off that storyline for good; because to be fair, we've only had one book pass between the end of GoF, a book in which (for the most part) F&G were at school where they really couldn't do much of consequence that we haven't seen them do before. And we know that JKR has the tendency to carry early storylines into later books.
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Still, here's what I think:
in the story that IS over (which we've seen -- Marauder/Snape era), we've seen that cosmic payback comes (even if not direct retribution for enmity); only they don't always get a chance to learn from it. I mean, there is always potential in arrogance being a cause of death: in James's case, it was.
Really? James died because Voldemort went after his son; what did that have to do with his arrogance? Unless you mean the Secret Keeper switch, but is it arrogant to trust one of your closest friends?
It seems no one ever learns from their mistakes in this universe; at least I haven't seen a single example in five books. It could still happen, but I don't have confidence it will.
And for those who suffered and/or died, their "punishment" wasn't for their actual "crimes," but almost completely unrelated.
I honestly can't imagine anyone not seeing a connection between Remus's silence during the Pensieve scene and the Trio's silence on Montague's injuries (except perhaps that Harry and Ron don't see it as a terrible thing, while Remus at least looked a little disapproving.
Why would JKR even bring up such a notion if she were honestly trying to convince everyone that Harry and Ron's thought process is the right one?
No, I don't think she wants us to think they are right. But even if the authorial voice isn't exactly approving their behaviour, I still get the impression it's supposed to be fundamentally harmless, not the descent into darkness it could be a symptom of. Just like we are supposed to find the twins funny, even when they're torturing Muggles, experimenting on first years or blackmailing people. Just like it seems hexing Slytherins until they're unconscious and don't even look human anymore isn't supposed to be serious.
And as for why JKR would do anything - why create interesting, complex characters and then be surprised when your readers like them? I don't understand JKR's thought processes at all.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I really want to be.