H/D, post-OotP

[sistermagpie]

wayfairer asks the state of H/D in the wake of OotP. She makes a lot of great points about how writers are dealing with the questions OotP leaves us with, and asked other people's opinions of H/D in light of that...and my comment got long enough that I figured it was really a post. Basically, I'm

You know, I wonder if part of the problem too is that on Harry's side we know he's gutted at the moment--faced with Draco he feels detached, and what do you do with that? (Detached, but able to feel a distant pleasure in seeing Malfoy so angry)

On Draco's side, we've got Harry having just taken his father away--the ultimate thing, based on Draco's limited dialogue in canon so far. This must be dealt with if you're dealing with sixth year, and Aja wonders how many writers actually are. It strikes me, though, that they really can't because we have no canon to go on. Up until now H/D has dealt with Lucius whatever way the author wanted. Draco could secretly hate his father, or have grown out of his attachment, or Lucius could just be a regular rich parent or could abuse him. Because we really have no idea. Draco's a big performer, so must of what we hear about Lucius is an act. This is not to say the truth must be the opposite of what Draco is saying, but clearly he mostly invokes Lucius' name for effect, to impress, to threaten, etc. The very first thing we hear about Lucius is that he's going to buy Draco a broom whether he likes it or not-and it's an untruth.
There's only one scene of Draco and Lucius in canon and it's in front of a shopkeeper so even that, while more relaxed, isn't completely honest. I would say there's only one single unguarded moment between Lucius and Draco in canon and Lucius isn't even there--it's when Draco calls him "Dad." It's one word, but hey, apparently the entire dynamic of R/S was changed by just a few words in OotP (Sit down, Sirius!--and Remus becomes a dom at last;-) )

I know when I finished reading OotP, when I thought of Draco the scene that drew me had nothing to do with Harry either--I just had this picture in my mind of his being taken home and unsluggified, probably set out on a bench in the garden or on a couch inside, maybe with Crabbe and Goyle, humiliated, and facing his mother and an empty house for the first time. Yet I couldn't be sure how to even imagine Narcissa because we don't know her. Truth be told, we don't know how the dynamic between Lucius and Draco worked either. So while Draco seems canonically to have had the most important thing in the world taken away from him, we know nothing about how to approach it. Even if you're confident in your general impressions of their relationship (it's positive/it's negative/it's abusive/it's not) you've got no Draco/Lucius interaction to jump off from, like you would with the Weasleys.

Perhaps this is why Fanon!Draco, is often unattached to Lucius. The tiny hint we get in OotP suggests something different, a relationship that, imo, can change the way H/D has to work, one where Draco is the underdog in ways he hasn't been before. I don't mean to suggest Harry has completely triumphed within the *series.* He's still fighting his Big Bad, Voldemort. But from Draco's pov, it's all about Potter, who's taken just about everything. Up until now, "everything" has meant popularity, school power, Quidditch stardom. It could be funny. Draco could still strut around in fanfic, or be fanon!Draco and just a brat. But losing a father...that demands some respect. And no, I don't mean OMG HARRY IS SO MEEN AND DRACO IZ TOTALLY TEH VICTUM NOW!!!111 I just mean: you've got a character who's always been defined by family, whose family and personal god has been taken away by this person. Doesn't matter that Lucius had it coming or chose to break the law, because to me we're more in Godfather/Sopranos territory now. If Draco just let's Harry take his father and does nothing, he's not a man and can't ever be.

I think that's why, oddly, the one post-OotP fic that I remember really feeling was onto something was Cassie Claire's How to Disappear, which is unfortunately still incomplete as far as I know. What I loved about this fic is that Draco is, in his way, the hero. He hasn't been given any special powers, or become cooler. Harry isn't torn down to build him up, though he's in that same place as he was at the end of OotP, numb, but able to feel an echo of pleasure in seeing Malfoy suffer. What makes Draco a hero--to me--is just that he makes the decision to do something for his father, something very small and therefore able to be done by him. He grovels to Harry. Iow, he agrees to endure, to suffer, for somebody else. For someone believable--for Lucius, for his family.

But that's a very different dynamic from pervious H/D, which was about rivalry, often with Draco characterized as having nothing to really feel anything about. Even when people discuss Draco's position in sixth year they more often talk about the school and the other Slytherins rejecting him and how he will deal with the loss of status, which is the way fanfic usually focused on it when it got rid of Lucius and Narcissa as well.

Comments

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

God, there's so much to think about here. I'm going to think about it a bit more before I answer this fully. The discussions going around about this whole thing are so fascinating. My brain hurts but I love it.

As a short preliminary answer: I think that I might simultaneously both mistrust canon and take it at face value. That is, while resenting the veiled and ambiguous and contradictory and unknown parts that canon doesn't show us about the Malfoys, I also feel an obligation to read the parts I can know very straightforwardly--at least in terms of developing a believable characterization and family dynamic. (I will say that this is something that has changed since writing LUW; when I began it, I wanted to believe that Draco was able to hate his father. Now I honestly don't think that I could start writing such a fic because I take Draco's worship of his father as canon, regardless of the fact that we don't have much concrete Draco-Lucius action to work with.)

I essentially agree very much with all you said about Draco's reaction to Harry taking Lucius away from him, and how it very much is all about Harry for him. But I balk at thinking that he has to be spurred on necessarily to action by this event--but that it might well be that he is instead spurred on through thought.

And now I honestly wonder if you viewed Hamlet as a man or as a thwarted boy, because while it would be the same basic idea that could make or break Draco, I'd rather see Draco for once contemplating all aspects of the situation than going in heedlessly and attempting to wreak some sort of rash, carelessly acted vengeance per his usual modus operandi, which to me would prove him waker than anything else.

Have gotten totally off-subject and I said this would be short. whoops. :))

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

OMG-Draco as Hamlet, I love it! But I totally agree that it doesn't have to lead him to action. In fact, for Draco inaction is almost a bigger change. Because he always acts in canon, coming up with a plan and doing things to other people somehow. But a Draco who's shocked into thinking for once could be something much more important. That was sort of what I liked in Cassie's story, that Draco is really agreeing *not* to ask. He just says to Harry, "If you tell them not to give my father the kiss, you can do what you want to me." It's like stepping off a cliff.

The thing with Hamlet, it seems, is that he starts out from a more mature place, because part of the reason he's out for revenge is that he feels like it's a duty, whereas with Draco you've potentially got something he really does care enough to think about dying for. As little of Draco that we got in OotP, making his love of his father canon is certainly something!

Frankly, I think Draco being inspired to *think* here rather than just act is more potentially surprising as well. Because it's hard to imagine an action of his that couldn't be easily anticipated by Harry without it.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I think Draco being inspired to *think* here rather than just act is more potentially surprising as well. Because it's hard to imagine an action of his that couldn't be easily anticipated by Harry without it.

I think I have this dualistic pull to make Draco think (become self-aware at least partially) and don't make him think (because he's not like that!!!! omg, he's a homicidal creepy brat, leave him alone!!!111 etc, etc, everybody's bitter at something, both me and Draco). For me Draco's a very non-rational/non-thinking person, to the point where when his intellectual function is given too much attention in fanfic I get turned off badly. But this may be that drive Aja was talking about above to "simultaneously both mistrust canon and take it at face value", or at least, for me it goes something like this: we realise this is a fatal flaw, and since fiction is transformation, writing as a way to make Draco grow out of it seems not just a obvious choice but also an aut-aut.

Still, I do feel many many people confuse "a healthy level of self-awareness" with that "rationalisation fixation" Reena was talking about some time ago. Reading Draco's internal monologues detailing the ways his relationships are beneficial to all and the ways they are pathological creeps me. Not just because no human being works that way unless they're an enlightened sort of guy, but because Draco especially is characterised as being extremely immature in that department. So I guess... fixing a flaw in order to make a relationship work doesn't necessarily have to mean overturning someone's character so completely they become unrecognisable? For Draco to have that much-agonised moment of clarity doesn't require turning him into Dumbledore.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've been thinking more about Aja's point about him loving Lucius, for instance, and being made to think and the thing is, with a character like that you could probably make him think without making him think. Which makes no sense--let me explain.:-)

Aja said, and I think this is an important thing, that it's hard for her to believe Draco could hate his father. It made me realize that to me the point isn't to get him to the point where he could hate Lucius, but perhaps to get him to the point where he could believe Lucius could possibly not love him. That, to me, is more in keeping with the Draco's we've seen so far, plus it's not an intellectual thing but an emotional one. He may not want to think about how other people might think about him, but his behavior indicates that instinctively he acts out when he gets a vibe of rejection.

That's one of the weird things about Fanon!Draco at times, is that his "ice prince" personality becomes so important. He doesn't care, he's above having feelings, so he's able to make these coldly rational decisions and that's how he comes to the conclusion Lucius needs to be dumped. But a Draco scorned is a terrible thing as well, and I think canon has set up that possibility more than the alternative. Not only has he often come across to me in canon as a kid covering up some insecurity about how he's regarded by his parents, but there's the Snape angle as well. People tend to describe Draco as a simple suck-up but to me he comes across as sucking up, yes, but also genuinely seeking approval from Snape and wanting to do things for Snape in return. It's a big contrast to Harry who's naturally suspicious and tries to avoid that kind of dependence on others.

And perhaps that's one of the things that Draco's situation at the end of OotP makes difficult. If you prefer the character stripped of that driving force of his personality, what happened at the end of OotP just isn't that big a deal. Losing Lucius is the same type of disaster as being humiliated at Quidditch.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! I have been thinking along the same lines recently. People who have not an intellectual outlook on life still manage to walk paths and make choices, don't they? So, yeah, I am agreeing with you. :D I wasn't denying that Draco can take his life somewhere else than the obvious - which is not his doing - yeah, that's the thing: I think Draco can do a lot of things; I am less sure about him thinking.

This may be caused by the fact that I'm having a huge crisis in my own writing since I've realised how little events define my storylines as opposed to how much introspection goes on. So at one point I was rereading the huge-ass school story I am writing and I guess an epiphany came to me: if one of your characters thinks a lot, then you're characterising him this way, because rationalism isn't a trait of human people in general, but a personality trait. Most other people has things happening to them and reacts to those in various degree of self-awareness. Eh, I guess I am thinking aloud/wanking about my personal issues now, so I'm stopping.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm.... well, my solution (sort of) is (as far as my two WIP novellas): in 6th year, following his father's imprisonment, Draco is so overwhelmed with rage-- driven so far-- that it basically breaks something in him. Harry doesn't care, Harry ignores him-- whatever, that doesn't matter-- Harry will -have- to notice him, because Draco just exploded, so to speak. All you need is one more situational trigger to push him closer to Potter, and it all goes up in flames, basically. Draco is basically going to be willing to do -anything-; he probably hates Harry more and is willing to go further than anyone else at this point. And what he lacks in ability, he could make up for in sheer intensity. Maybe.

Of course, Draco's rage and need and frustration has always been my banking card, anyway, and OoTP hasn't changed that. That's partly why I've been willing to write the Death Eater!Draco fic-- because now Draco's not going to be joining for his father-- he'll be joining for -himself-. It's totally personal in a whole new way. He can pull himself up-- he'll either try to make himself (and his voice) -matter- to Potter or die trying, quite literally.

I've never been a big fan of Draco's submission to Harry (i.e., groveling) before Harry gives Draco his attention first. It's not a question of romance to me-- not as a writer (though I still want teh Hot Boysex as a reader). It's a question of someone who has nothing left to lose and a target that's clearer than ever. As far as Harry-- he needs to see Draco (i.e., something -outside- of his own narrow focus) as much as Draco needs to show him. You don't need a specific relationship with Lucius-- all you need is the fact that this is the worst thing that has ever happened to Draco, and that he'll make Potter pay if it's the last thing he does. In the end, I imagine the price will be paid by them both, of course. But if they don't drive each other insane (as was always a danger), these are all major ingredients for a cathartic change, I think.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the whole thing of Harry having to notice him actually turned on its head post-OotP, because before that I think writers generally relied on the fact that no matter how hard Harry tried he couldn't *not* notice him. This holds true throughout OotP. It's only in that last scene where Harry's moved so far beyond Draco, and Draco's big tragedy is literally an afterthought. Harry didn't even connect what had happened at the MoM to Draco, because let's face it, he doesn't really see Draco's relationship to Lucius having anything in common with the relationship he would have had with James, or the Weasleys have with Arthur, or he had with Sirius. Yet it's this moment when JKR chooses to have Draco call Lucius Dad.

I see the way you're seeing it, with it not being about the specific relationship to Lucius but Draco making his point that this is the worst thing that ever happened *to him.* That's your Draco alright.:) And I love him. But I guess I'm also interested in a Draco who would be different about this particular incident, so for once it really wasn't just about him or rage, but about a connection to another person. It's just another possibility that fandom, I think, has less to work with to show.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah, I'm all sheepish now ^^;;; Man, do I really write both Harry & Draco as completely self-centered? ><; It's interesting, because Draco's relationship with Lucius is quite different in the Death Eater!Draco fic than in the one where Lucius gets taken away and Draco is angry at him as much as at Harry, really, because Lucius doesn't break free and he feels pressured and unable to help or escape-- and disappointed, too. I wrote that first fic right after OoTP, and I still wanted Draco to turn away from his father at that point, so perhaps that's filtering my perceptions. That has gotten to be less important to me, and the Draco-Lucius thing has gotten more complicated in my head-- to the point where in the Death Eater!Draco thing, Draco decides that with Lucius gone, he should take responsibility and do what his father would have wanted him to do (which is rather difficult, but he feels he -must- now). I sort of invented a history for that, in terms of his father training him in little ways from an early age, and those lessons affecting Draco more on a subconscious level than a conscious one-- and finally he has several turning points where these things come to the surface, and he sort of realizes that he'll never be good enough for Lucius-- or for Harry-- though this is after he becomes a Death Eater and completely fails to torture a Mudblood like his father wants him to.

So there's more than one possibility in my head. On the one hand, I want Draco to just be angry at his father too, for leaving him, and at himself for being so helpless, and at Potter for being the source of all evil-- but on the other hand, I also see how fascinating it would be to make that connection/need for Lucius be Draco's 'fatal flaw', of sorts, something he'd keep trying to achieve even when it becomes completely ridiculous-- because then he realizes he can't succeed at much but he tries anyway, because what else can he do?

I don't know if I meant that Draco's rage was selfish-- I just mean this is the lowest he's ever felt, so this gives him power over Harry to some slight extent. I mean, with Draco, it's always about the connection to another person-- whether Harry or Lucius, but generally both. He's both bound to them and completely set apart from them, unable to touch them because they're out there doing things-- failing or succeeding-- while he's just on the sidelines, heckling and grumbling and eventually having to take it. I didn't mean to make it about him and his rage at all, I just meant that to make it -more- about him, to give him more power, because before he was so powerless and completely dependent, you know?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I do see what you mean. I think it's a little of what I was saying to malafede above too--that Draco may not be able to just turn up his nose and dismiss Lucius but that doesn't mean his relationship to him has to be static. I've always thought his relationship with Lucius seemed actually a lot like his relationship with Harry, in a way. And Snape as well. He seems to want to impress, and get approval, and connect that to feeling secure or loved or whatever. Feel okay with himself. Harry outright rejects him and it enrages him, but the source of his rage is clear for all to see--it's the rejection. No matter how much he rails about not liking Potter obviously the problem was that he put himself out there and was rejected and humiliated. Harry still has that power over him.

Snape, otoh, seems to have been a more positive experience (though that could sour if Draco later feels betrayed for Harry). Snape gives him praise and special regard in class. He hates Harry--and possibly in Draco's mind it's partially because Draco does, what Harry did to Draco. In response Draco in canon is, imo, blatantly eager to do for Snape in return. I think he really wants them to be friends.

Lucius is the most complicated, because I think he gives mixed messages. At times Draco probably wins his approval, and he certainly tells Draco he's superior just because he's a Pureblood and a Malfoy, but then he also criticizes him and suggests the only thing he's got going for him is that. So, like I said above, perhaps the big thing with Draco and Lucius isn't to figure out a way for Draco to stop loving Lucius, because he's yet to stop feeling any passionate feeling about anyone so far, but to figure out a way to make Draco have to confront the possibility that Lucius doesn't love him.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Of course... I mean... it's not enough by a long shot. I mean, I agree, it's about Draco confronting Lucius' failure in some central way, but that still doesn't bring H/D together, and in fact I believe if you had a strong bond between them that occured parallel to Draco still being loyal to Lucius and on the road to Death Eaterdom, they are still possible as a couple (ala `Tale of the Shining Prince' or a zillion hatefuck fics). There's a tendency to talk about -Draco- when people bring up H/D, as if Harry is something to 'add on' or tag along or as if people can take him for granted. I dunno, have you noticed this? The H/D fandom really seems like it's All About Draco-- as far as the problem and also the draw. Draco's hot, Draco's a brat, Draco's irredeemable/redeemable-- but this is a -relationship-, after all. It's not really about Draco but about Draco-and-Harry and... the Harry part is equally important, right.

People just avoid Harry, 'cause I'm sure no one knows where to start-- you can say he 'should' like/see Draco, or 'why not' or, 'he needs to figure out Slytherins aren't All Bad'-- but none of that makes me think of a romantic relationship. Honestly, the only people who mention Harry are like, 'well, he needs love and Draco can give it to him'. That's kind of funny, actually, as if he -wants- Malfoy, of all people, to give it to him. Draco's easy, actually-- he's obsessed already. Lucius is a detail that may or may not -break- their relationship when it's started, and it shapes the form it takes (more angry, vengeful, desperate Draco to work with), but it's not actually describing -what- the relationship would be like or what issues it has day-to-day or in really getting off the ground, even. The meat is Harry, and people just... use meat substitutes all the time, it feels like, in fic -and- discussion. (Am I bitter?? Of course not!! *coughs*)

I don't think there's a good reason (per se) for Harry to want/like Draco, Lucius or no. Of course, it's not about reasons, but it -is- about Harry and what Harry wants in a partner and what Harry's attracted to-- 'cause Draco already's attracted to Potter on -some- level, at least. So really, giving Draco more 'freedom' to want Potter by altering his relationship with his father leaves him... where? -More- desperate for Potter... who still doesn't want him.

This is where canon and canon-discussion fails and only fic can pic up the thread, btw~:)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

OOh! This is great and I totally agree--it's like how I know I've said how people complain about Fanon!Draco as if Harry is IC when he's not, and this is the same thing--it's meat substitute. Harry's just given some attraction from beyond or something like that. People don't want to get into what he wants in Malfoy...and he does want *something.* It's not as close to slashy as Draco is, because, as you said, Draco is attracted to Harry on some level (ironically, a lot of cliche H/D reverses it and has Harry the one who's just attracted while Draco has to be convinced). Harry, otoh, is basically repelled by Draco, and has been since day 1.

But there's a passion to it, something he can't ignore. He chose Draco as his enemy, no matter how he wants to deny it. To make the ship work realistically you'd have to deal with that, I think. That's part of what I like about the set-up in Cassie's story, that Draco offers himself as the punching bag Harry tends to use him as, encouraging him to have it, give in to every negative impulse he's ever had. And Harry starts experimenting with it. It's negative, but it's also got Harry *thinking* about Draco and what he wants from him and why, and that, I think, could be the start of any number of interesting transformations for Harry.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

but about a connection to another person

Isn't that one of the main differences between Harry and Draco though? Outward focus and inner focus. Harry's focus is on himself, Draco's focus is all outside - which doesn't mean for a second that he's compassionate or charitable or sees The Other as an... equal recipient of empathy. He's narcissistic, the Other is his audience and the marker of his Self, he measures his worth against them and the core of his emotions is the drive to get their attention and love. This is why it's kind of obvious to me that Draco gives Harry his attention (and submission, as one possibility, later on) and Harry doesn't. It's not a question of who loves more, or is more into the relationship, it's just different personality types.

Though, honestly, I tend to think - in very general terms - that while Harry is a better person, Draco loves more. Mine does, at least. Unhealthy love, selfish love, castrating love, but still more. Maybe Harry's love is just stunted and that's why I perceive it as less? That's another possibility.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

It just occurred to me that I'm so dead certain of my take on it, but of course I realise other people's pov is different and just as valid for them... this has to be why I always, always, always thought the Draco in The Tale of the Shining Prince (by Olympia) was perfectly and poignantly canon, while others label him as fanon whitout a second thought.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Actually, I tend to see it that way too. I think that's why it always bugs me when it's suggested Harry's big gift is LOVE, that his mother loved him more, or he's got this great ability to love. It's not that I see Harry as incapable of love or anything like that, it's just that if I was going to think of his primary descriptors "loving" would never be on the list. Draco, by contrast, seems constantly at the mercy of love, even if it doesn't look like that to others. Like I said in the other post, he does seem pathetically dependent on others caring for him. That seems to drive both his positive qualities (not that we've seen much of those, exactly) and his negative ones.

That's also why I don't get it when people describe Draco's initial encounters with Harry as not being personal, that he just wanted Harry for a friend because he was Harry Potter or that Harry is just the only thing he ever wanted he didn't get. To me it seems like those initial encounters set up his entire personality in every scene. He did want a personal connection with Harry; he did want a friend; he wanted to be liked, despite the fact that he's so obnoxious about other people, acting like he's above most of them. That personal rejection has fueled his rage for years. If he was just being bratty on principle he would be a different character, imo.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

It's kinda funny because Draco didn't know Harry was Harry, so how would he be trying to impress Harry Potter as opposed to a random kid who struck him as interesting? :D In a way, Draco chose Harry. And Harry made Draco choose him, later on, with his rejection.

[moonlitpages.livejournal.com]

I used to think that the lack of canon evidence to support any one Draco-at-home theory was part of what made it so interesting, but you are right, it can be extremely limiting as well.

I know when I finished reading OotP, when I thought of Draco the scene that drew me had nothing to do with Harry either--I just had this picture in my mind of his being taken home and unsluggified, probably set out on a bench in the garden or on a couch inside, maybe with Crabbe and Goyle, humiliated, and facing his mother and an empty house for the first time.

What really gets me is the idea-- since we know from that very short scene in CoS that Lucius at the very least pushed Draco to achieve-- of Draco receiving the scores of his NEWTs and having no Father to show them to. No matter how evil the man is, Draco has still lost the most defining figure in his life, who seems to be his sounding board for just about everything.

I think what struck me the most with the ending of OotP regarding these two, is just how very parallel they seem to be, even more so than before. Harry loses his father figure; Draco loses his father. If anything it almost seems to put them on even footing now for the beginning of the next book: they've both lost something extremely important to them, they've both been had their worlds turned upside down and been horribly disillusioned. For Harry, it was realising that Dumbledore is just as fallible as anyone else, instead of the ultimate source of protection and wisdom Harry always thought him to be. For Draco, it is having to face the fact that his father, who he clearly idolizes in canon, was beaten-- he is not all-powerful, either. I really can't wait to see how it all plays out, myself :-)

[eido.livejournal.com]

Harry loses his father figure; Draco loses his father.

You and I seem to be thinking on the same lines, although you're about 20 or so minutes faster to the draw. ;) Harry also lost that dream of the father he never knew. It also forced him to see his father figure in another light before, literally, losing him. One could say Harry already "lost him" with that pensieve scene.

H/D... possibly coming to an understanding thanks to a mutual disillusionment? I could see it. In regards, I've suspected a potential enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of scenario coming about. It would be very interesting how the cards would fall to make that happen.

[moonlitpages.livejournal.com]

I hadn't even thought of that-- but you're right! Both Draco _and_ Harry hero-worshiped their fathers, and this illusion has been shattered for both (or at least, I very much imagine it to be for Draco, because as much as he is convinced that Lucius will overcome and break out of prison in 'no time', the fact remains that he was put there in the first place). Both of their fathers have fallen from grace, so to speak. I would love to see their own methods for dealing with this sending them colliding into each other, because Harry never seems to be very far out of Draco's orbit to begin with ;-)

[eido.livejournal.com]

I hadn't even thought of that-- but you're right! Both Draco _and_ Harry hero-worshiped their fathers, and this illusion has been shattered for both

I really want to try to tie in Percy and his fixations on Arthur and especially Barty Crouch Sr., but that's meandering away from OOTP. Of course, there's also "Expecto patronum", Riddle Jr. vs. Riddle Sr. and Riddle Jr's idolization of Salazar Slytherin. Riddle's situation mirrored in Barty Crouch Jr. Harry being the mirror image of his father. Draco's "father said *this*", "wait until I tell my father", (similar behavior displayed amongst some of the Weasley kids, "I'll ask dad", blah blah). If I keep going, I'll probably be babbling on forever. Really thinking about it, the rampantness of daddy issues in HP is kind of crazy.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

So true--and it's great for me because frankly, I LOVE father/son issues! Then you can add to it all these surrogate fathers like Harry/Snape, Harry/Sirius, Harry/Dumbledore, Draco/Snape, Tom/Dumbledore...good stuff there!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Draco receiving the scores of his NEWTs and having no Father to show them to. No matter how evil the man is, Draco has still lost the most defining figure in his life, who seems to be his sounding board for just about everything.

Yes! This seems to be something Draco was literally raised to need. For most readers who don't consider any other aspect of Malfoy other than what Harry does, I don't think this is a question. But it's interesting that some of us are focusing on it--who will he show his grades to, what will he say to his mother, and all that. It's mundane, but then that's something Malfoy doesn't often get to be. I mean, it's weird because he is mundane as a villain, worried about Quidditch and house points instead of the end of the world, but his homelife has always been blown up into something more OTT.

I think what struck me the most with the ending of OotP regarding these two, is just how very parallel they seem to be, even more so than before.

Yes, I was just saying something like that somewhere else. I don't know if it's intentional or not but it's just too perfect that this happened in the book. And not only did they both lose father figures (Harry not only lost his idealized version of James but Sirius as well), they both lost them in some way to the other. Lucius was indirectly involved in taking away Sirius; the Pensieve scene did connect to Draco in many ways--he was an absent presence who came up. Harry, obviously, was connected to Lucius' imprisonment. Arthur was another father threatened in OotP, but not only did he live, but his family got to be there with him. It just seemed like surely this whole father-fixation thing has always been meant to tie these two characters together.

[moonlitpages.livejournal.com]

Arthur was another father threatened in OotP, but not only did he live, but his family got to be there with him. It just seemed like surely this whole father-fixation thing has always been meant to tie these two characters together.

Exactly-- on one hand, you have the Weasleys, who are left at the end of canon as this cohesive, loving family unit who remains as strong as ever despite a stray lamb or two from the fold. On the other you have both Harry and Draco, whose families have disintegrated around them. Or at least for Harry, what he had left of a family-- both his idealized father watching over him, and the last flesh-and-blood embodiment of this. Both of their protectors are gone, and they're going to have to stand up and really make their own choices for once. Neither has a paternal figure standing over them (Dumbledore, Lucius) to make these decisions for them, now. I think in canon, this obvious connection will be what causes them to face off in the end. But at least in fan-fiction, I would love to see it used to bind them together instead (isn't that what fanfic is here for? ;-) ).

[eido.livejournal.com]

we've got Harry having just taken [Draco's] father away--the ultimate thing, based on Draco's limited dialogue in canon so far.

This is probably random and melodramatic contrasting to the above, but in regards to H/D post-OOTP, I tend to linger on the idea that Harry and Draco both lost their fathers, in a sense, in OOTP. I do often wonder if JKR's intent with OOTP was bludgeoning us with you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. A theme from which no one is safe but also puts everyone on that general FUBAR boat. Particularly in regards to the war. Draco, literally, lost his father to a botched DE mission and Azkaban. Harry lost that heroic ideal of James, rather brutally via Snape's memory. I'm not sure how purposeful this was on JKR's part, but the Snape pensieve scene, ironically and jarringly put James'/Sirius' actions in parallel to the DEs' at the QWC with the Robertses. All the HP personalities contain an inherent propensity for evil? Where is the line drawn between "good" and "bad" in HP? Even Harry and Voldemort are put at a non-pass by the end thanks to the prophecy. "Neither can live while the other survives."

Of course, I'm probably safe assuming Lucius won't be incarcerated for long, nor do I suspect JKR will leave the current tarnished view of James so firmly in place. Even if he'll never be that perfect ideal Harry likely had of him prior Snape's memory. In parallel, I don't think the Lucius / Voldemort relationship will be as it once was, but that's entirely speculative.

If there is a stronger, tragic parallel being built between Harry/Draco post-OOTP, I suppose one can speculate the characters coming to some sort of understanding before the end. Probably through some comparably similar hardship and/or mutual enemy.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes! The Pensieve scene definitely seems important to me that way as well. I'm just now thinking, in this conversation, how two of my favorite Draco moments in OotP are favorites because they are literally the first hint of human connection we get with him. As I said in the post, the B&B scene is a Draco/Lucius scene, but it's not affectionate. Here we get JKR choosing to have Draco refer to Lucius more intimately and he gets that moment with Snape where Snape refers to him (Draco) by his first name in a way that hints that the two of them have a friendly relationship outside of class. We also have the scene in the library where the three DE sons discuss what to do about the Quibbler article. You can take that as hostile and threatening, or as three kids in a tough situation that's out of their control who are banding together for understanding.

I felt like throughout OotP family was so important to the point where getting away from your family seemed impossible. Even Sirius, who is now often characterized in fandom as having sort of lived the life of Fanon!Draco, hating his family who neglected and abused him, but to me he seems to take after his mother.

If there is a stronger, tragic parallel being built between Harry/Draco post-OOTP, I suppose one can speculate the characters coming to some sort of understanding before the end. Probably through some comparably similar hardship and/or mutual enemy.

Yeah, I sometimes find it frustrating that when you point things like this out people often jump the conclusion that you're trying to make Draco the main character of misunderstood etc., and yet canon keeps giving us these parallels that seem important.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I felt like throughout OotP family was so important to the point where getting away from your family seemed impossible.

What puts my mind in a tail-spin is that in regards to Harry, he seems for a good portion of OOTP not necessarily trying to run from his family per se (at least not in a clearly defined way), but running from himself. More specifically, the part of himself that is Voldemort, that's Slytherin. He hides in Buckbeak's room, away from the normal people like Ron, Molly, Ginny and Sirius (all his friends fighting against Voldemort, all incidentally with strong ties to Gryffindor). He fears for their lives because of what flows through him. Although he can't escape himself, seemingly, anymore than Sirius could escape the ties to his own blood. The dangerous and unacceptable part that Harry attempts to shelter the others (and himself?) from, is also inescapably and unwantingly connecting him to not only Voldemort, but Snape and Draco too.

I have often pondered Harry's lashing out at Draco and Snape at the end of OOTP. Obviously, this can easily be interpreted as Harry venting his anger, grief and frustration at two people he's never liked very much.... but yet there are those parallels between Harry / Snape and Harry / Draco. A sort of transposed anger at himself would make sense considering Harry's guilt in his role in Sirius' demise, but Harry has had anomosity towards Snape and Draco long before OOTP. I'm not exactly certain where I'm going with this, but going back to what you said about trying to escape family. I wonder what JKR may have in mind in regards to the nature of the relationship between Harry and Voldemort... or, at least, the Slytherin in him. Harry can't run from Voldemort (Slytherin?) anymore than Sirius could run from his mother?

hating his family who neglected and abused him, but to me he seems to take after his mother.

Her unconditional hatred for anything non-Slytherin versus Sirius (unconditional) hatred of his family and anything that reminded of him of his family (ex. Kreacher). Seems pretty dead even there. Same hate, different reasons for the hatred.

[cellia.livejournal.com]

On Draco's side, we've got Harry having just taken his father away--the ultimate thing, based on Draco's limited dialogue in canon so far.

This is always an interesting point to me--the idea Harry was responsible for Lucius' imprisonment. And it's not a surprising idea when we have Draco blaming Harry: "I'm going to make you pay for what you've done to my father..." "You can't just land my father in prison" and Harry taking credit: "I thought I just had."

But--forgetting that really it's Lucius' choices that landed him in jail blah blah etc etc--Harry actually has very little to do with capturing Lucius, except maybe acting as bait.

In the Dept of Mysteries, Harry does little but fall for Voldemort's trap, and then run away and hang on until the cavalry arrives. In fact, he's just about to hand Lucius the sphere when the door bursts open and the aurors arrive (when Tonks may or may not get a shot in). Harry does later manage to blast Lucius off his back as they scrabble for the prophecy, but it couldn't have been too bad, as Lucius is aiming his wand a second later, and Harry and Neville are saved from Lucius by Lupin. That's the last we hear of him... Dumbledore arrives and takes care of most of the DE, presumably including Lucius. Then Fudge arrives, and sends the aurors down to arrest people on Dumbledore's insistence.

To me, this turn of events (coupled with what we know of Lucius' personality) implies that Lucius would see Harry more as large annoyance, a victim that slipped away, perhaps at most as a stalking horse. The really objects of his anger, the real threats, the people who brought him low, would be Fudge, the aurors and Dumbledore.

What this means for H/D: Draco builds up Harry's role, Harry's competency mostly on his own. There's the old obsession, but also blaming Harry is the least despairing thing to do here. The safest thing to do. Hating Dumbledore, hating Fudge... what can a teen, even a rich and powerful one, do against them? They're more like institutions than people. They're very *adult* adults. Harry is on some level more comprehendible, more familiar. He's more recognizable and solid to Draco than anyone else involved in his father's situation.

Random Aside: I think there are some parallels between Harry blaming Snape and Draco blaming Harry... no coincidence that JKR has Snape burst in on them in the hallway and Harry feels a surge of helpless, useless anger just as Draco does...(does this mean I really ship a twisted H/D/S triangle? hm)

And as for the implications for Harry taking the credit for Lucius in Azkaban... for all that Harry's just detached and "fuck all y'all," he knows on some level that he just got into deep shit and was mostly bailed out by other people. (Another random aside: I remember there was lots said about how OoTP was about disillusionment and the failure of authority, but it's the only one of the books where Harry doesn't mostly save himself and the adults come to the rescue and the story gets out and DEs get arrested.) So, despite being detached and grief-stricken, he still cares enough about what Draco thinks to do some testosterone posturing. Yeah, I did that to your old man, and I'll kick your ass too.

Harry's detached, but there's no "just leave me alone Malfoy." There's no turning and walking away. They see each other and both stop, snipe, and draw wands. I don't think this means that they have a deep connection, but they're both serving as a useful symbol to the other, a target upon which to expend some overflowing and unbearable emotion. Harry's just less afraid and more apathetic toward Draco as his substitute target.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Draco builds up Harry's role, Harry's competency mostly on his own.

Yes! Absolutely--and he's done that for years, focusing all his frustration about everything on Harry. I wonder if this is something that Lucius himself was wrong to not pay attention to. I mean, we see him in CoS telling Draco it would be wise not to go on and on about how much he hates Potter, given his status in the WW, but does he realize how impossible for Draco that is? Many things Lucius considers minor annoyances may seriously trip him up or tip the balance in the end.

I think there are some parallels between Harry blaming Snape and Draco blaming Harry... no coincidence that JKR has Snape burst in on them in the hallway and Harry feels a surge of helpless, useless anger just as Draco does...(does this mean I really ship a twisted H/D/S triangle? hm)

LOL! I love it. And yeah, that is definitely a parallel there. Dumbledore early on made a casual comparison of Snape/James and H/D, and I really felt, in OotP, that there were times when the three of them were present and the fourth should be considered there in spirit too. Perhaps Snape focuses on James the way Draco focuses on Harry and Harry focuses on him.

So, despite being detached and grief-stricken, he still cares enough about what Draco thinks to do some testosterone posturing. Yeah, I did that to your old man, and I'll kick your ass too.

Yes, I noticed that too! In a way Harry doesn't want Malfoy to just leave him alone because Malfoy is somebody he can take care of. Here is another kid in the school who's been affected by this, and that Harry can vent his own anger on. It's like in the beginning when Dudley and his friends are walking by and Harry wants them to come over and mess with him. Harry's feeling helpless, but he has reason to feel less helpless than Malfoy, or at least pretend to. Interesting, too, that Malfoy makes no mention of Sirius, if he knows about him. In the beginning of the year Malfoy was teasing Harry with the suggestion something would happen to Sirius, and now something has, but Draco's only concentrated on his own loss.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of points in this post, though I think the fact that we know so little about Draco and Lucius' relationship should make it easier to write about, in the freedom of interpretation stage.

Having said that, regardless of what differant opinions people might hold of the Draco-Lucius dynamic, having his father publically denounced as a DE, and then thrown in jail by his arch-ennemy is not something Draco will just accept. Love the Sopranos references btw, and while I'm neither an Italian Mobster nor a British aristocrat, I can understand the concept of clearing the family honor (hell, there are still people in the island of Crete shooting each other over vendettas). So yes, that's not dealt with enough.


Up until now, "everything" has meant popularity, school power, Quidditch stardom. It could be funny. Draco could still strut around in fanfic, or be fanon!Draco and just a brat. But losing a father...that demands some respect.

Ah, see, but I like the potential of that change. It might make the ship harder to get to, but it should also provide for more complex fics, and less leatherpants!Draco around (hee, Draco in leather underwear!Sorry, that never fails to crack me up). And if it makes for darker, less optimistic fic, I say bring it!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of points in this post, though I think the fact that we know so little about Draco and Lucius' relationship should make it easier to write about, in the freedom of interpretation stage.

It makes me think about the interpretation side of fanfic--because I feel like fanfic is always part analysis and part original story. It seems like maybe part of the problem with OotP is it changed the dynamic and maybe people are holding on to things they just got used to from before? I don't think it destroyed the ship by any means--in fact, that's a bit bizarre given what happened. But maybe people just aren't yet sure what their take on it is and it would help if there was a boost from canon.

Love the Sopranos references btw, and while I'm neither an Italian Mobster nor a British aristocrat, I can understand the concept of clearing the family honor (hell, there are still people in the island of Crete shooting each other over vendettas).

Absolutely! Although that's perhaps a difficult mindset to write because it goes against a lot of things that are healthy. Still, I think it's there and I love those characters because of it. It's again why I don't like this idea of Sirius not really being a Black, so he grows up neglected and his mother is just an ogre who never cared about him. I believe Kreacher when he says Sirius broke his mother's heart (in her way) and think it's a fascinating thing to explore. Being blasted off the family tree doesn't mean you've been erased, it means you're a scar.

Ah, see, but I like the potential of that change.

Me too--definitely.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

ITA with your main point in this post- that the ‘Lucius factor’ is something all H/D writers are essentially obligated to incorporate in their fics, if they want to pick up the story from the end of OOTP and keep it IC. And of course that is much harder to pull off than when writers could simply focus on Harry and Draco—and to think that it used to be considered a tough job to rid their relationship of such “interferences” as Ron, Hermione and Pansy :P!

But I am rather delighted to read all the conflicting ideas about how to write H/D “appropriately” post-OOTP. Haven’t seen vibrant discussions about this ship for a long time. I don’t believe there is One True Way to write post-OOTP H/D, be it Draco shocked into thinking/acting, Draco shocked into mute/doing nothing... as long as it is explored well as a non-producing pure consumer in this fandom (as ishitar termed it) I am eager to read any take!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I know, isn't it great the discussion? Let's take control of our ship! We don't have to apologize for it or ignore canon to get it. Our ship did something great in OotP--it was forced to grow up!

I mean really, hasn't Harry's path to adulthood understandably always been centered around his father? And isn't interesting that OotP also saw the introduction of flawed fathers and Terrible Mothers? I mean, there was Mrs. Black, and also Lily yelling at James, and finally Narcissa being the overlooked key that got Sirius killed. A key that could have been Draco as well, had Narcissa been dead.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to really hate these discussions, people seem to disagree on fanon far more regularly than they do canonical issues!
(No offence meant of course, I could hash out stuff all day here, it just depresses me to see people so dissatisfied with their own ship!)

I do think that fandom as a whole and not just partitions of it, seem to have been fairly disappointed in OotP, not just those who think it was unimpressive by it's own terms (who are probably in the minority - it's a FANdom, after all) but those who are/were more productive in terms of fic-writing; whether they enjoyed the book or not.
I'm not really part of fandom as a whole - I don't write much fic at all, and I disagree with a large percentage of people's interpretations (isn't it weird how you can like a person's work but be completely blind-sided by their thoughts on actual canon?...) - there are certain accepted ideas of canon such as Harry is now 'too good/mature' for Draco (I wonder how this applies to the Harry/Ron shippers, since that friendship, while on healthier terms than H/D sort of took a backseat in Harry's POV...?) or that (and this is also combined with JKR's rather unhelpful interviews) Draco/The Slytherins are 'doomed'; which I'm not particularly comfortable with, although I can obviously see why someone else would extrapolate that.
The balance of power shift and Harry's feelings re: Draco does seem to have bothered a lot of writers more than Draco's feelings towards Harry, which is odd; because the ending of GoF and OotP is pretty similiar, H/D wise, (we could argue the toss of Harry was provoked by Draco in GoF, but the scenes almost mirror each other, which has to be on purpose, or else JKR has become a very unimaginative writer) so it's hard to see why some of the people who've been here pre-OotP (I was, but not actively) are so blocked by one and not the other.
I mean, H/D hasn't really changed from Books!1-4 that much, it's the same dynamic: they fight, Harry (and by extension, the audience) thinks that Malfoy is an unimportant bother but is still provoked by him; Malfoy has a petty school victory, Harry wins Quidditch, something annoying/sad/embarrassing happens to Draco, everyone laughs, something bad happens to Harry but he grows, and everyone feels bad for him.
I mean, what occurred in OotP that hadn't in previous books, prior to the ending, which is really as I mention, more about Draco's feelings regarding Harry than vice versa?
Why is it so difficult to imagine Harry giving a toss about Draco post-OotP? At the end of GoF, he and his friends stepped all over Draco and his friends faces, it doesn't exactly proclaim 'Gosh, I take this Arch-Nemesis of mine seriously!' ;)
The blockade is Draco's grudge now, if anything, (almost a reversal, I suppose) and yet Harry is the one who most writers find it hard to characterise accurately as being 'forgiving'.

The only difference in their interactions during the book was that they were no longer matched in a duel, thanks to a years less DADA training for one, but then it's not like anyone's a match for Harry Stu.
And of course, if Harry's being more self-centred and less concerned with 'petty' interactions, surely that would spell a death knell on a good 90% of Harry!ships?
I mean, he cared less about his friends in this book, and even Sirius (while he was alive, obviously), does that mean that OMG NO-ONE IS WORTHY OF HARRY'S TIME, LET'S BURN SCUSA TO THE GROUND!

It confuses me. Surely Harry not hating Draco so much is good news!
To me, it's fairly obvious that it's a stepping stone style clue, like the Sorting Hat (and no, I don't think OMG ALL TEH CLUES LEAD TO CANON!H/D MY TINHAT IS TOO SMALL, but I do think they'll end up having to reconcile their differences in some way.)

I guess OotP kind of separated the wheat from the chaff, and divided fans - there are much clearer territories now: people who take Harry's mindset (and 'side', to extend that) and see Draco as less important because he does; and people who um, don't.
But hey, we don't need no stinkin' chaff, anyway! ;)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

It strikes me, though, that they really can't because we have no canon to go on.

It has rather forced an enmity that perhaps before was easier to break down. But really, who didn't see that coming?
It's almost flattering in a way, since if all that 'Draco is now unimportant to the plot, his character will never progress' bollocks was true, there'd be no need to include it at all.
JKR could have just stuck in a line about him looking sulky since Dad's gone!

So while Draco seems to have had the most important thing in the world taken away from him, we know nothing about how to approach it.

It does kind of bring home how sparse his characterisation is.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Draco, being the character I'm most fascinated by in the HP!verse, is pretty much the reason I'm here, and while I have issues with how the Slytherins are presented by the narrative and Harry's perspective, since it's so contradictive; (is that even a word? ;) I'd be happy reading and he'd still be my favourite character even if he remains fairly low-key in terms of airtime and role in the story.
But we have no idea how he reacts to negative events etc because his characterisation is so varied.
We've seen him sulk, we've seen him attack, we've seen him shout, and gloat, and run, and do absolutely nothing.
Granted, said events are fairly varied in terms of seriousness, but then for example, I wouldn't have guessed that after being hexed, he'd come bopping up happily at the beginning of OotP as if nothing had happened, which strikes me as either glaringly unrealistic characterisation (not just as 'Draco', but for anyone to react in that way) or else wild masochism.

black_dog mentioned that in post OotP H/D stories; 'There's Angry!Harry, which I think doesn't really do justice to the complexity of his emotional development in OOTP -- there's evidence throughout the book that he has some insight and perspective on his feelings and and the book ends with an epiphany of Luna that's all about empathy and kindness.'

To which I replied:
'I think the problem with writing H/D and including Harry's more positive emotional developments is that he hasn't yet made any with regards to his enemies.
His 'Luna epiphany' is certainly a step on the right track, but whereas towards the middle of the book, Harry had made encouraging steps towards seeing things from other's perspectives - the Pensieve memory, for example (although I think perhaps this was interpreted much more simply than it was written - the fandom seems to have seen for example, the parallels between Harry and Lily or Harry and Snape, as they're acknowledged in the text, but missed the subtler more negative associations - Harry as James, Draco as Snape; as Harry himself immediately recognises when he realises he would find a similiar situation funny if his friends were the instigators, and it was 'someone who deserved it'.)
Anyway, while Harry has made encouraging progress, his anger and grief at the end somewhat drowns it - a case of one step forward, two steps back; and while he finds it in his heart to emphasise with Luna, perhaps because she's a more positive example of dealing with grief; his reactions to Snape and Draco are worse than ever, as proved by the casual hexing of the Slytherins by the DA and his 'deciding which curse to use on Malfoy'.
However, Draco's being without his father for the first time and Harry being the main character pretty much sets the stage for his prejudices being challenged as much as anyone else's.

I don't know, it's difficult for me to discuss fanon and fic writer's ways to overcome the enmity, because much as I am wildly critical of almost every aspect of canon, I truly think of H/D in those terms.
It mystifies me to see people who can't see/believe in it in the books, but who ship it in fandom. I mean, what's the point?
And by H/D being canon, I don't mean OMG THEY R ALREADY SHAGGING MY TINHAT IS SLIPPING; but that it's a believable extrapolation of the text, and an important dynamic in the text (and I mean H/D interaction as opposed to Teh Slash - all in the subtext and all that. ;)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I've really been spamming you recently, I'm sorry. Maybe I should start posting rebuttals in my own journal. Or maybe STUPID LJ SHOULD INCREASE IT'S COMMENT LIMIT!!1 >:(

It also interests me that people think Harry's choice of romantic partner would be at all influenced by how 'worthy' they are, since his only canon relationship motivation was 'Cho is Teh Hawt' whereas at least she had some complex psychological reasons tied in with her feelings for him.
Of course, his friendships are all dependent upon friends adopting his views, and he did get sick of Cho re the Marietta thing, but still, we're not talking some deep intellectual who couldn't possibly lower his saintly self to anyone not as perfect as him (especially since in canon, no-one could ever be 'equal' to Harry, whom the entire 'universe' revolves around!)

The very first thing we hear about Lucius is that he's going to buy Draco a broom - and it's an untruth.

And of course there's the reaction to Harry's insinuation that Narcissa doesn't particularly like her son, and the 'I'm going home at Xmas to my Faaaaaather (that's how I pronounce it in my head ;) and Mother, whereas you haven't got any!' taunt that's directly contradicted by CoS.
(Of course, one could fanwank that JKR forgot, since she needed Draco, Crabbe and Goyle to stay in CoS. Or that they stayed to see the carnage. Or any amount of possibilities. But Draco!canon is rare enough not to dismiss anything!)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hey, I love it when you spam because I'm usually nodding along!

Yeah, I almost think there's probably something people don't *want* to see to have so much trouble with H/D post-OotP. I mean, it's one thing to just be interested in different things, that's fine. I don't mean to suggest ship preference has some ulterior motive or anything. But I did think it was odd when people were declaring H/D "sunk" at the end of OotP, first because it suggested it was floating in canon to begin with, but also because it seemed to suggest that there was something that had to happen in OotP for it to continue to work and it didn't. When really, as you say, there's just not that much different in terms of what happens between the boys in OotP, particularly since the ending was so similar. I was almost embarassed for it--you're actually writing the *exact* same ending?--and had to assume it was there for a reason. The big difference is things could have just gotten a lot more dramatic, and isn't that what fanfic usually wants? Shouldn't we really be wondering why Draco blaming Harry for Lucius' death/incarceration isn't already a fandom cliche? Just because a lot of previous H/D avoided it doesn't mean it destroys the ship.

I've always been confused by Fanon!Harry and his amazing compassion, and the events used to back it up from canon always fall flat to me. I mean, yes, he's nice about Luna--about as nice as any normal person might have been right off. Luna, like Neville, has proved herself a great person even before Harry has this epiphany (and neither one's parental status is a secret). So I just don't see the "lesson" if we call it that, being exactly what people often want it to be. It's definitely not the same lesson we'd be getting if the subject was Malfoy.

It's funny, after all, that the whole thing about Harry and Malfoy in OotP is that Harry's allegedly "moved beyond him," or outgrown him--which says absolutely nothing about compassion. It just says Harry's got people he hates more than Malfoy, and while it's good to not waste anger on anyone doesn't that make it more important Harry comes to an understanding with him? To make the distinction of, "I hate Snape with a passion. I hate Malfoy too, but I hate him in a contemptuous way where he's not worth my time." Hmmm. Is that really a good idea, to hate someone and consider them beneath notice? That didn't seem to work out so well with Sirius and Kreacher.

Also, maybe this goes back to my post on why I can't help but feel something different for Draco at the end of OotP than I do in GoF, but when you think about it hasn't *Draco* moved beyond their previous interactions, and his previous role in fandom? That's sort of what I was thinking of when I was thinking of people focusing on whether Draco would be shunned next year. Maybe he will, but shouldn't that be a lot like when Harry is shunned but has more important things to worry about? It just seems almost rude to take a character that just had something bad actually happen to him and expect him to be your snarky poster brat for your amusement, you know?

I guess it's always just frustrating because, as you say, Draco canon is small but very consistent and rarely, imo, conforming to the most popular fandom interpretation that he's "just a [insert bad thing]" with nothing else going on. To me it seems like we've gotten hints of a more complex situation than Harry sees many times, moreso even than with other characters. It's hard to believe it's an accident, but JKR seems to practically say it is in interviews.

And yes, it's most definitely, "Faaaaaather," no matter how Tom Felton says it!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

But also because it seemed to suggest that there was something that had to happen in OotP for it to continue to work and it didn't.

I think perhaps people (including, gasp, me ;) expected a little too much from OotP, after such a long break since the last book.
And while it did have it's strong points, including the much grayer morals of the 'goodies', it seemed very much a transitional part of the series.
To borrow a cliche, a happy ending can't come in the middle of the story, and that applies to every character; and fic tends to focus on ending the series themselves rather than continuing it as JKR has to.

I was almost embarassed for it--you're actually writing the *exact* same ending?--and had to assume it was there for a reason.

Heh, me too. I mean, unless you're purposely doing some mirroring/showing how, I don't know, the Trio have become accustomed to doing what they like; (and even if she is) that's a pretty lazy ending there!

I've always been confused by Fanon!Harry and his amazing compassion, and the events used to back it up from canon always fall flat to me. I mean, yes, he's nice about Luna--about as nice as any normal person might have been right off. Luna, like Neville, has proved herself a great person even before Harry has this epiphany (and neither one's parental status is a secret). So I just don't see the "lesson" if we call it that, being exactly what people often want it to be. It's definitely not the same lesson we'd be getting if the subject was Malfoy.

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that discussion we had over BadFic!Harry and his rescuing Malfoy from suicide, and how frighteningly OOC it was. ;)
I was fairly unmoved by the Luna 'epiphany', I'm afraid - ooh, look, Harry is capable of compassion! Well whoop de fucking doo, someone give him a medal!
I can see how it's a good sign, but until HBP comes out/whoevers writing a fic progresses from there, all it is a sign.
As for Neville, that is one trend I really don't get. It does seem as if fandom thinks Neville is more 'deserving' of Harry now that he's improved his skills somewhat and has a prophecy tied to him; when of course that completely contradicts the point that he didn't need all that to warrant respect or even Harry's friendship in the first place. Plus Harry doesn't even seem to rate him highly now after he's proved himself and everything, which I suppose says more about his character than Neville's, but it doesn't make me want to run off and ship Woobies of Destiny.

It's funny, after all, that the whole thing about Harry and Malfoy in OotP is that Harry's allegedly "moved beyond him," or outgrown him--which says absolutely nothing about compassion.

I think people interpret Harry's not caring as Harry is now 'a marked man' and far too "mature" and "adult" for Draco, which seems to me to be missing the entire point of OotP, which completely deconstructed Mature!Harry!
I can definitely see how his responsibilities are far more adult and outweigh whatever Draco's are, but that's not really the same thing.

Is that really a good idea, to hate someone and consider them beneath notice? That didn't seem to work out so well with Sirius and Kreacher.

The Marauders didn't rate Peter or Snape particularly worthy of consideration, or so it would seem, and look how well that worked out for them!
And of course I like how Sirius and Harry get the credit for being 'above' the pettiness of those below them, but also got to relieve their frustrations physically and verbally on them.

It's hard to believe it's an accident, but JKR seems to practically say it is in interviews.

Yeah, that last quote re: Sirius has got my hopes up now that she may have overcome the Harlan Ellison/BTVS writers Piss Off My Fans disease and started seeing things...um, well, my way ;)
But I don't want them up too high so I'll be prepared for the next U STUPID FANGIRLS SUXXOR!!1 post.

And yes, it's most definitely, "Faaaaaather," no matter how Tom Felton says it!

Poor Tom. He gets blamed for about 90% of the crappier H/D fic, too. Maybe he's sekritly behind it all?