The Truth Hurts

[sistermagpie]

roxannelinton made the mistake of pointing me to an Elkins essay on HP4GU. Naturally this got me stuck reading other essays because they were all so good. One in particular was close to my heart, about *why* exactly we like the characters that we do, and it brought up the fact that we usually naturally associate fictional types with people we know in real life, and our reactions to the RL people naturally influence that. I was going to think about the characters I like and think about who they remind me of (Snape totally reminds me of the teachers in school that were feared and hated but *I* always wound up getting along with and liking a great deal), but in the course of thinking about this I wound up having a big personal revelation about Draco and me. It's long because it's about ME ME ME.



Elkins essay was in response to the twins, whom she considers bullies and doesn't like. But she made the important distinction that the fact that they were bullies wasn't why she disliked them, and she did not think other people should dislike them because she did. She disliked them because they reminded her of certain types she knew in real life growing up and because in the books they were often associated with comeuppance humor, which she despised. Plus they had nothing in common and she suspected they wouldn't like her. I would have avoided them in school. Draco I would keep at a safe distance. He's also a bully, but a different kind.

Obviously there are lots of Draco-lovers or at least people who can stand Draco amongst you all. It seems like when we're asked why we like the boy, the most common answer is, “He often says what I'm thinking.” I tend to also think of it as his stating the obvious and absurd. I believe, in fact, that JKR once described Draco as being such a bad bully because he was the "smart" kind who found weak spots to hurt people with. Weak spots=personal truths.

Now, obviously it's not as simple as saying this character speaks truth and others don't. It's also not-because I think this is what a lot of people think of when you describe a bully as truthful-about the kind of person who insults other people and claim they're being “honest.” Draco actually isn't that type. What I do mean is that Draco tends to speak a certain kind of truth in a certain way in certain situations, different ones than the main characters. Every character is going to have certain times when the truth is important and other times when they lie, just like any person. Draco just happens to always be a certain kind of voice. He says things that are usually considered bad to say-a certain kind of bad. Only some of us like exactly that kind of thing, particularly if we can't identify with the mainstream attitude that well.

This is where I think I really do identify with Draco and it has often gotten me in trouble. Like, I have this idea of myself as completely un-intimidating. So I've been surprised the few times I've been told I was harsh--well, actually, the word people always use is not harsh but "scary," and occasionally "evil," usually for saying something a little too true. Did I say something intentionally hurtful? In one case I suspect I did. It was to these two guys I went to high school with and there were times they made me angry because they were pretty insensitive and I suspect in joking around I did slip in things to cut them down to size. Imagine my surprise when by chance I found out they noticed and did get cut down!

More often, though, it's not that I've said something mean intentionally but I'll say something I think is just obvious, something I thought was perfectly fine because I can't see any reason for anyone to be sensitive about it, and be met with shocked stares. Or perhaps I did know it was sort of sensitive but still thought it should be said. Like, if I were friends with Draco Malfoy I would know if he was strutting around saying he was going to win the next Quidditch match and Potter wouldn't know what hit him, I would know not to say, "Yeah, it's not like he's humiliated you ever year since you were twelve." Because obviously I could see there was a personal reason he would need to not have that contradicted---Harry has no such excuses about Hagrid. He does have reason to be sensitive about his wanting the Weasleys as a surrogate family.

Here's the two examples I can think of from my own life. I hope they're not too tedious, but they're the ones that sprang to mind. The first was when I was in college and in an a Capella group. We'd lost a few people so we had a number of songs that needed new soloists and were having auditions at rehearsal. This one girl who was sort of a BNF (without the F) of the group and already had a few solos. She tried out for all four new ones. The first three all went to other people, because they happened to be more suited to them. The fourth number she was best for. So when we're discussing who we're going to give it to everybody was just all, "Ooh, I think X was great." "Yes, me too, her voice quality is perfect for this..." and it was just too ridiculous. So I laughed and commented how we were all relieved because it was we'd all been totally uncomfortable rejecting her. I mean, we all knew what she was like, and nobody wants to reject somebody four times in a row. Of course we were relieved! But from the way people stared at me you'd think I'd made a racial slur.

The other time was when I ran into this girl I knew in junior high. We were now in college and we met on a train. She was talking about her youngest sister, who was now 12, and saying how her sister had far more freedom than she did at that age. "She's allowed to DATE!” she said. “I was never allowed to date in seventh grade!" Like this was ever an issue for her-nobody wanted to date her in seventh grade. I made the mistake of saying as much and really pissed her off! Apparently I didn't get the memo with our revised seventh grade history where this girl's biggest stress in seventh grade came from her lame mom cramping her sex life instead of being picked on by girls and having no interaction with boys whatsoever. I wasn't trying to insult her; I thought we could share a laugh at being losers when we were 12. Of course, I should have remembered she was like this at 12 too.

Anyway, you can see the pattern. I just can't help it, though. It's not that I can't lie, it's just there are certain things where I feel like you should be able to tell it like it is. In fact, I was recently reading a great Agatha Christie where at the end (no spoilers) Poirot says that he expects the victim's 12-year-old son to come to him in a few years and ask for the details of his parent's murder. A character says, "You won't tell him, will you?" He says of course he will. This boy, like him, prizes truth above all else. Truth, even if it's bad, can be understood and put into the pattern. To her, the most important thing is that people not be hurt. To him the most important thing is knowing how things really are/really happened/really work. I hated the woman character in that moment, and I knew why the little boy was my favorite character.

And I think that's another reason I sort of lean toward this character. As Elkins said, we usually like people first because of their humor or personality and then we figure out their morals. It should be no surprise Draco cracks me up from his first scene-the one where most people and the hero decide he's Awful, and for exactly the same reasons. I think he had me at, “Exactly.” Or perhaps where, strangely honest as always, he introduces himself as a spoiled brat. Like I said, it's not a question of “this is me” or “he is just speaking truth.” It's just honestly I think either you respond really positively to, “Who wouldn't want a pet that stings, burns and bites?” or you don't. Perhaps instead you respond better to ton tongue toffee. It's a personal thing. I like "exactly." I have a fondness, especially, for people who are unwittingly rude because they're just clueless, particularly when I think the other person is over-serious or over-sensitive. In fact, reenka and I were talking about the appeal of the H/D with a certain kind of Fanon!Draco and I think this might be it--putting in a character that can do this and have it get the reaction they want. That's why when Fanon!Draco says the kinds of things that fill Canon!Harry with disgust, Fanon!Harry instead realizes he's kidding and is able to see the truth within and not see it as threatening.

ETA: Here's the original essay. It's a great read, and may make this more coherent. She actually lays it out much better than I do here, as I seem to have sometimes put across the exact opposite idea than I intended in this post! The point is, there are reasons we just plain like characters, and that probably often leads us to cut them slack where we might not with others. I know very well that I *like* this character, and am wondering maybe why. It's not a defense of why this character is likable or should be liked by others.

Comments

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hum hum hum.

I myself always just said what I thought-- er-- unless I'm feeling shy and clammish. But it never occurs to me to either be rude or 'polite'-- I'm neither. I've never been intentionally mean to anyone in my life that I remember, and neither do I go out of my way to be 'nice'-- but people think I am because I just don't think in... er... rude 'terms' if that makes sense? So I never thought Draco said what I was thinking-- I mean, no one in HP says what I'm thinking, but then I totally identify with the pov character in every book no matter who they are. So I'm thinking what they're thinking anyway. (...I don't remember bothering to fully read a book about a character I couldn't stand enough to identify with-- this is why I'm a sucky English major.)

Anyway, so the idea of saying rude-but-really-almost-innocuous things doesn't appeal to me-- that's normal. I like witty/snarky people because they mean to amuse-- saying the truth means you're an idiot as often as not. Like... I do have a certain respect for the boy in `The Emperor's New Clothes', y'know, who pointed and said 'HEY! the KING IS NAKED!' but. Yeay? So what? He was an innocent, as is Draco, I think. Does Draco think of consequences? No. He's just a) trying to be mean; b) doesn't care about people's reactions unless they have power over him. He's not... self-aware enough to make me actually care that he's truth-speaking, even though I really do respect fearless speech more than almost anything. That is to say, Draco is not fearless in his speech.

So... people who're most concerned with others' feelings just kind of... frustrate me too (I totally know what you mean!) because they're just... completely differently focused than asocial hermitic introspective little me (as I'm sure you understand, ahahah). I don't care what people think (while Draco does). To me (...and, I think, to you) it's not a big deal to say the obvious. To Draco-- Draco thinks he's All That, which is... funny. Pathetic and cute and... funny. But identification with him, for me, stops at the understanding that he doesn't understand (whereas I grew up understanding and not caring, which would be totally alien to Draco, I think). So really, I'm meaner than he is in a completely different way >:D

I think Ron says exactly what he thinks (and yet is actually witty/cute in how he phrases it) too, but what he thinks is just not as... er... uncharitable. It's still stinging a lot of times, but it's not... blunt and black&white and 'so what'-like as a lot of Draco's so-called observations are. I mean, I'm like you in that I'd avoid Draco but I don't think what he says is a Big Deal or anything-- sure, fine, it's obvious-- and...? It just rarely seems like it's important truth so much as... petty truth, I guess...?

The people who don't really say what's on their mind and are calculating and concerned with others' reception-- their priorities don't mesh with mine at all, but neither do Draco's... though Draco's endearing for his innocence and persistence and dorkiness (since I do like the stupid little brat... sorta). I just think that elevating Draco's apparent pov as 'truth' means elevating that petty mindset... the 'little' truths, for lack of a better term. Meh, I'm getting carried away with my annoyance at Draco.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I just remember reading his lines in CoS & GoF and thinking he was... cute. Well, he was! It's sort of like, 'aww, he says the darnest things!' Like, I could tell he's endearingly oblivious of how he really comes off to most people, and it just baffles him why anyone wouldn't adore him (ahahahahaahahahahhahahahah). It's cute! I'm sort of laughing -at- him (and his delusions of grandeur) rather than -with- him, but still. So I respond well to his little barbs without thinking he's awful (jeez, even I could do better & I suck at insults) or really admiring them, y'know? Because Ron is funnier, Snape is more cutting, and Harry more sarcastic.

I'm totally not much with the ton-tongue-toffees mostly 'cause physical humor is totally lost on me-- but then, I thought the little song (Weasley is Our King!) wasn't funny either. I like more subtle/sarcastic humor (aka snark), which is what fanon!Draco has, actually. Fanon!Draco very rarely has Draco's humor (and it's hard to tell when canon!Draco is, in fact, 'just joking' in his taunts).

Still, Draco's the closest thing there is to a cutely funny Fool/Jester mocking from the sidelines in HP (which is one of my all-time favorite archetypes!). Probably because the -really- cool Jesters are all 'part of the Hero's gang', since Ron/the Twins/Harry get the best lines, usually. Which is actually sad. He's still cute of course :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

See, I would disagree that Draco is clueless. I mean, sometimes he is, but more in a cultural way. Like, when he says to Harry that Hagrid is "some sort of servant," and Harry says he's, "the head groundskeeper!" and Draco says, "Exactly," it's like on one hand he's clueless because where he's coming from, "Yes, that's a servant. As I was saying." But there's also a sort of defiance in that kind of joke exchange, because Draco doesn't amend what he said. I don't mean to imply Draco is *that* self-aware, there, but the way the humor works for me is in the defiance: No, I'm not going to use the politically correct term because I said what I meant. So it's not that Draco says the darndest things it's that Draco's not conforming to what he's supposed to say.

The other moment when he does that--whether consciously or not--is when he asks about Harry's parents and Harry says, "They're dead," and Draco says, "Oh sorry, " without seeming sorry. Well of course he doesn't seem sorry--why would he seem sorry? He's talking to a stranger. And it just makes me laugh when somebody feels entitled to some reaction to someone and the person just completely doesn't give it to them. I don't know how most people react to that line. Harry is offended by it. I think Harry's the one with the problem.

But then in other things that Draco says he *is* self-aware and he's intentionally making the same joke that I'm getting. Like, in the robe shop it could just be his naivite that makes him not pick up on Harry's offense at the term servant, so I'm getting a joke he's not. It would be like if Draco was a fundamentalist Christian and said, "Oh yes, he's in some sort of cult, isn't he?" And Harry said, "He's Catholic." And Draco said, "Exactly" without realizing the person was correcting him, not agreeing with him. But those aren't the scenes where people say Draco says what they are thinking or what they would say. Those scenes are the ones like in CoMC where Draco is self-aware and actually succesful.

What I like isn't that Draco just says what he thinks--that's something different for me. He doesn't always say what he thinks. That's more the person who's insulting and just says they're being honest, imo. What I identify with is more that you've got a bunch of people not saying what they're all thinking and he does. In CoMC not only are most of the kids of course keeping quiet because Hagrid's a teacher but the main character is for some reason so insistant on nobody saying these things. They're in an absurd situation and there's one kid pointing out that it's absurd, which is why he gets more support there than he does elsewhere. He does that for me in meta terms.

Luna has a similar moment in OotP when she says about Hagrid, "We in Ravenclaw think he's sort of a joke," and some of the Gryffindors get all up in her face as if she's insulted him when she was actually just accurately giving Ravenclaw's view of Hagrid. And what's great about Luna is in her own way she also does the defiant thing because while Hermione backpeddles furiously when she gets judgmental about the Quibbler Luna doesn't seem at all about to change her opinion on Hagrid because silly Harry Potter has a strange reaction to it.

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

I've been told I was harsh--well, actually, the word people always use is not harsh but "scary," and occasionally "evil," usually for saying something a little too true.

It's funny that you say that because my husband said to me once -- and it absolutely floored me -- that I'm not as nice as I think I am. I have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth and, of course, I realize it way too late. I'm not sure if I identify with Draco because of that, although I can be openly dismissive of people if I don't like them. I've pretty much have grown out of that now. Back in high school, I could carry a chip on my shoulder, like nobody's business.

I like Draco because he is kind of a bad guy. He's a good foil to Harry. He also has a lot of potential which keeps me intrigued.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--this is the first time I've ever realized there's anything I *could* have in common with with the kid, though in a very different way. But yes, that is what it's like, having somebody tell you you're coming across badly when you have no idea. It's one thing if you're accidentally sounding stupid, but it's weird when you're coming across in a way you never would have imagined.

And also rather funny when you think about it. Oops. It makes me wish (as I sometimes do) that just for a bit I could be, like, a minor character in a Henry James novel so I could come in and get summed up perfectly in a paragraph and see myself from the outside very starkly. Though maybe I really wouldn't like what I saw...

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely don't want that kind of self-awareness. Let me have my delusions.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Wait, I thought I've read all the great posts by Elkins- how come I don't quite recall this one? Link please ^-^?

That's why when Fanon!Draco says the kinds of things that fill Canon!Harry with disgust, Fanon!Harry instead realizes he's kidding and is able to see the truth within and not see it as threatening.

That's just so... URGH! TOTALLY!

I've always thought that coming from Draco's POV, he must be wondering if everyone around him is kind of crazy, he rarely gets the kind of response he (or I) would've expected! If you mentally go through all the scenes Draco was saying something unpleasant in the books (ie, 99% of the time), you'll find that basically nobody even argued with him- they either tell him to shut up or beat the crap out of him. Like what he said were without a doubt *always* complete rubbish and there was even no point in proving him wrong.

Like when he was saying how the Weasleys had more children than they could afford, seems like a fair enough statement but god forbid you to say it out loud! IIRC Harry was just busy to put the fire out by saying, "You know what Malfoy, what matters is that you suck and are the *wrong sort*!" But did he also think Draco's mean remark might have actually described the truth? Why didn't Ron defend his family proudly like his dad would've because he really wasn't ashamed of their financial status? If Draco's a big bully because he told the unwelcomed truth... so... was his biggest crime "the intention to hurt", or actually "not being nice" or "lacking common sense" then?

I am (hopefully)no Draco in real life. Because while I know exactly what to say to hurt those who anger me, I also know exactly what they can say about me to hurt me right back. And it would be like a mutually destructive full-out nuclear war! It's actually kind of sad that people who are secretly nasty are regarded as better persons than those who wear their worst side like a proud... something.

I know a lot of the Draco-haters think I am overly defensive of him. Well maybe? But I really thought that the poor silly boy had already taken a lot of beating for his petty crimes both in canon and fandom, and by *sometimes* saying things I do agree with but would never have said out loud in real life, it's like he'd taken some of the beatings for me so...^^;;;

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's funny--I was thinking about this with regards to Hermone in OotP when she puts her foot in her mouth about The Quibbler. She says, "Everyone knows the Quibbler's rubbish," and Luna says, "Excuse me, my father's the editor." And Hermione gets all flustered and tries to say, "Oh, well of course there's some interesting articles," and Luna's not buying it. It just sort of surprised me because I honestly think in a similar situation I wouldn't have been quite so flustered.

It would probably be more, "Hey, there's an article in The Weekly World News about X." Me: "It's the Weekly World News. Hardly a real paper." Luna: "Excuse me, my father's the editor." Me: "So then you know what I mean."

I mean, Hermione may have said it in a harsh way but what's wrong with referring to a tabloid as a rubbish paper?

Here's the original essay, which I should have linked to before! (http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000158.html#top)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Luna: "Excuse me, my father's the editor." Me: "So then you know what I mean."

Ahahahahahahaha!! OMG, OK, now I know why people call you Teh Scary.

If it were me...

Luna: "Excuse me, my father's the editor." Me: "Fuck me."

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I think there's a fine line between honesty and rudeness, and I don't think Draco cares abuot honesty. We see him being deceitful all the time, like when he feeds info to Rita Skeeter, and I just don't feel like he has enough freedom of personality to blurt out whatever random, genuine thought is passing through his mind, tact be damned. I think he crafts his points, lame as they often are, and he sometimes shows real cunning in getting to someone's obvious achilles heel.

Or perhaps where, strangely honest as always, he introduces himself as a spoiled brat.

You're implying that he knows he's a brat and is playing on this idea, instead of him just being one, and I'd have to disagree. The crack about the pet that stings, etc.? That's really funny, as even Hermione knows and won't admit. But that's different to the petulant, obnoxious first impression he makes in the books.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I think there's a fine line between honesty and rudeness, and I don't think Draco cares abuot honesty. We see him being deceitful all the time, like when he feeds info to Rita Skeeter, and I just don't feel like he has enough freedom of personality to blurt out whatever random, genuine thought is passing through his mind, tact be damned. I think he crafts his points, lame as they often are, and he sometimes shows real cunning in getting to someone's obvious achilles heel.

Yes, I agree--that's just what I meant. I wanted to make it clear I *don't* think what Draco is doing is just blurting out what comes into his mind or saying what he says in the name of honesty. I think he absolutely thinks about the situation and crafts his points and is intentionally sticking a pin out to deflate the other person, which is what I respond well to, even when he's being cruel. That's also what I do, though when I'm hurtful it's because I don't realize the person will be that sensitive about being deflated. If I knew perhaps I might have kept it to myself (unless the joke was just too good and I had to make it). I respond to the character because we do seem to have something in common in this area. We have an understanding, even if we behave differently.

In fact, that's why I think very often when things are going Draco's way it's because he is using the truth to his advantage. He knows he's lying to Rita Skeeter and knows how much it will drive Harry crazy to be misrepresented. In OotP he knows it drives Harry crazy to be called crazy when he's telling the truth about Voldemort (I will not tell lies...) and so encourages the idea while infuriatingly winking at Harry about it. I think one of the few ways I identify with the character is that he is kind of obsessed with truth and secrets and the power they bring, and his humor reflects that.

Part of the point of the essay I was responding to (which I'm going to hunt up so we have a link in the thread) and this post here was that this has nothing to do with Draco being less of a bully or less vicious or good. People often like characters who are cruel without liking cruel people in real life. Draco happens to hit these particular buttons for me so I've always liked him in canon, even while I can say he's a bully and often mean and stupid and unfunny etc. I associate Draco with this type of humor, whether the character is doing it himself or the character is just used for it in a meta way.

You're implying that he knows he's a brat and is playing on this idea, instead of him just being one, and I'd have to disagree.

I think he's doing both, being a brat and playing on the idea. He says he will "probably bully" his parents into buying him a broom. I don't know how to read that except as Draco saying he is a brat. His parents don't intend to buy him a broom and won't want to buy him one, but he will demand one, make a fuss and bully them until they are forced to give in to him. Isn't that the definition of what brats do? If Draco is somehow unaware of this, then it's the narrator making that joke with him, so I respond to it much the same way.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

Wheee, so much here. I think I'll reply to the posts before delving into the conversation between you and reenka.

I'm going to get slightly sidelined first by the post on the twins. It is kind of interesting if you like and feel for Snape but hate the twins. The author of that essay also cheered along Crouch, Jr. because he just fooled everyone so well. So if you're disliking the twins because they're bullies and mean, isn't that kind of an unfair judgement?

I think I also would dislike the twins personally, were I to meet them. I also would probably dislike Snape if I were in his class--though I'm not sure about that. When I reread the first book again I was in love with Snape's opening lecture and that would have bought him a lot of understanding from me. But I doubt I would have had opportunity to see beneath his mask, the way Harry can but doesn't. That's why I find him so compelling, as a reader. In person it might be harder to separate his abominable behavior from the intriguing thread of who he really is.

But I still think it's easy to figure out why I hate the twins more. Snape is a bully, and he delights in squashing others, but he's also obviously unhappy and driven by a childish misery. Crouch Jr is, well, nuts, and also driven by unhappiness. Bullies who lash out at people because they're unhappy will, in the end, treat you just as badly as any other bully, but it's a little easier to feel sorry for them and identify with them.

Fred and George, on the other hand, seem to be the kind of bully that I hate the most. In high school I termed it "happy malice." It's the kind where they're not acting out some deep-seated rage and misery, they're not unhappy at all, they're just being mean because it's kind of fun. They just like to leave their handprints on the world and don't get or don't care that they might be hurting someone. I don't know why that pisses me off more, but it does. I hate people like that. I think I hate it because the Snapes of the world try to hurt others because they want to destroy something in others, to bring them down. They want to step on that humanity and spirit in others, maybe to make themselves feel better. The Fred & Georges of the world don't even really see that humanity and spirit and don't even know that it might be there to be damaged. That's overstated but I can't think of the right words. The F&G type bullying doesn't even seem to acknowledge that you're a person with feelings. I usually found that harder to take than the people who went out and intentionally tried to hurt your feelings. At least they thought you had some.

Also, the F&G type bullying comes with its own double-bind: they are genuinely surprised if they figure out you're hurt. They don't think they're wrong at all. You must not be able to take a joke.

I think I also dislike them narratively. If anyone, anyone, within the books were to acknowledge that F&G are mean and sometimes cross the line, then I'd have less of a problem with them. But Rowling doens't think there's anything wrong with them. I think some people vehemently hate F&G because they just get away with everything, both within the story and also outside the story, in the narrative judgement. (Sometimes Hermione will slap down F&G. But Hermione's opinions aren't always taken seriously by any other characters, especially her opinions about rules and morals.)

This was too long and must be split. What a surprise.

:)

[ljash.livejournal.com]

Now, Draco. He's a peculiar case. And I think maybe a lot of what you can say about Draco depends on how you interpret the canon because, as I've said before, Rowling doesn't really tell us who he is and doesn't even seem to be expecting us to try to find out. But yes, Draco is a bully--kind of an inept one for some reason. His bullying isn't physical like most of F&G's or (usually) power-based like Snape's. He is left to what he can say to you. He's quite talented about knowing what button to hammer on but usually not so talented at the hammering itself. I'm not sure why I say that... just that usually he comes across as knowing what subject will drive you bonkers but never saying anything very subtle or cutting. His actual insults aren't impressive--he makes up for this by hitting the right subject and usually he can make people crazy even when he says unsubtle insults.

He's kind of a truth-teller, but not quite in a Cordelia way. (I forget if you're a Buffy fan, but the stuff you were talking about seems far more Cordelia than Draco. An insulting, tactless truth-teller who steps on the egos of the main characters by puncturing their illusions, sometimes intentionally and sometimes because that's just the way she approaches the world.) When he first met Harry he was just telling the truth as he saw it, oblivious to Harry's coldness at what he was saying. It was really the same in the train when he said Harry had better make the right kind of friends. But after that he seemed more trying to bug people with everything he said.

The examples from your life seemed neat to me--I sometimes wish I were more like that. I hate having to pretend the world is other than it is because everyone else agrees to. I do it, though, pretty successfully, but it grates on me.

As for liking characters... I think I have a hard time separating fiction from reality in that way. Sometimes I'll cheer on an underdog even if they're awful, but I think sometimes I'll do that in real life as well. Snape is kind of an example--a friend of mine hated Snape and I would kind of like him and we'd have these strange conversations about him. She couldn't excuse his behavior, even if she understood him more. I couldn't excuse him either, but for some reason I didn't care. I understood him. That meant a lot to me; I don't always understand Harry or Sirius or Ron or Hermione or Dumbledore or really anybody else. I think if I had to be around him I'd smack him in the head frequently (that'd get me some interesting punishments) but that I might, even still, find him intriguing, and lonely, and maybe more like me than anyone else is.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

This is great! And see, I think you're totally right in your first sentence and that's the point: if you like Snape but dislike F&G for being bullies, isn't that an unfair judgment? And it is, but only, imo, if you're literally trying to prove or pretend that Snape isn't a bully and F&G are. Elkins wound up doing a sort of series of essays regarding this subject because it took a while to be understood, I think, but that was basically it. Sometimes characters doing mean things is funny, even if you don't approve of it. But you can't really choose which characters you're going to find funny and which ones you aren't.

And once you like a character, you naturally look for their reasons, the sympathetic things in them. You want them to be nicer--things you let go in your friend might drive you crazy with others. So I think a lot of times the moral aspect gets mixed in where it doesn't belong. Like here I'm saying hey, for some reason I *like* this character--and there's a lot of reasons I like him. I think you have a good point, for instance, in what you're saying about the twins, that they bug you because they're all about happy malice. Snape, at least, is miserable himself. In fact, I think Elkins actually said something similar where she admitted that one of the things she can't stand is brutishness. Snape is more attractive to her, even if he's also a bully, because he is at least sensitive, while I think F&G are not.

For other people the opposite is true, I suspect. In canon it appears that "sensitive bullies" are definitely considered horrible in ways insensitive ones are not. But it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that not everyone ranks them that way. Some people are going to react more negatively to different characters.

Cordelia actually does sound more like I've described...I think I've not yet really put my finger on the right description here. Because, like, I remember in OotP the thing that I found myself liking about the Draco scenes was his irreverence. All this serious stuff was going on and he was doing terrible things and it was all just sort of HA HA HA! But in a way that I appreciated, for some reason. I guess that's why, as I said to Reena, I could draw a shady line from him to fellow Slytherin Phineas who had a sort of related approach to Harry.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

If you like Snape but dislike F&G for being bullies, isn't that an unfair judgment?

Heh, I always think that many of the characters in HP are similiar (Harry and Draco are like mirror images, to me anyway), the only difference is how they're treated by the world around them and the authorial voice.
So Snape, while I have many problems with him including his treatment of students, is at least acknowledged as a bully: no-one could/would/does defend him from the charge, everyone, even his closest friend (I suppose would be Dumbledore, by default *shudders* Until we find out more about him and Lucius, perhaps) and worst enemies recognise this. And although he doesn't face consequences for his actions as frequently as some (Dudley and Draco seem to be the two that are 'punished' the most, probably because they're Harry's age - there's something more pathetic about an adult being humiliated) he's not rewarded either - he's ugly, he's nasty, he's alone and he has a dead-end job that he clearly doesn't enjoy.
Whereas Fred and George are popular, beloved, funny and presumably successful. No-one, from their worst enemies (Slytherins, I guess!) to their closest friends has ever contemplated accusing them of being bullies (as far as we know.)
Likewise, I don't resent Harry for being arrogant, or self-centred or cruel; or Hermione for being vicious because I adore Draco and Pansy for the same qualities; I resent them for the kidgloves they're treated with, both on a meta-level and within the text.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

You know, when I was reading this post this morning my gut reaction was "no, I don't see Draco as the character who "speaks the truth", and it's not really a reason for liking him either. I was thinking about other fictional character that I figured suited the role of "the one who speaks the truth which no one wants to hear" better, and came up with the witch from "Into the Woods", as the best example, but even there, I think the "truth-telling" is somewhat limited, and I don't think that's my real reason for liking her, even though I do love the line "You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right." Because the thing is, observant as she might be for the flaws and short-comings of others, she's blind to her own (hence she ends up losing her daughter by making the mistake of extreme overprotection), and somehow I think it's somewhere right in that dissymetry, that I go from just thinking that she's entertaining but not emotionally engaging, to really start sympathising with her.

But then, I reread your entry, and I realise that that's not what you said, either, because of this:

Now, obviously it's not as simple as saying this character speaks truth and others don't..... Every character is going to have certain times when the truth is important and other times when they lie, just like any person. Draco just happens to always be a certain kind of voice.

Exactly. A certain kind of truths. But just as the witch in Into the Woods, there are other kinds of truths that he is blind for, especially when it comes to aything which would involve any kind of self-examination.

I have a fondness, especially, for people who are unwittingly rude because they're just clueless, particularly when I think the other person is over-serious or over-sensitive.

Yes, THAT I think I have, too. It's one of the reasons why I like Hermione too, I think, that she can say these things that seem logical, but in ways and situations where they are completely insensitive, like when Lavender lost her rabbit. I don't necessarily like this kind of thing in real life, because I think tact is important, but at the same time, tact is also something which is incredibly difficult to learn, because everyone has different sensitive spots, and how can you really expect someone to always be successful, when there are so many different unwritten rules for how to behave, depending on who you meet? For this reason, I expect it can feel quite a bit refreshing with characters who pretty much seem to not be giving a damn of such things.

Personally, I think Draco had me from the moment Harry rejected him, though I'm not entirely sure. It's just that I think it wa the first time he showed any vulnerability, and vulnerability is essential for me, if I should go from finding a character merely entertaining/interesting, to really rooting for them.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

But then, I reread your entry, and I realise that that's not what you said, either,

Oh good!:-D

No, seriously--because I don't think I used very good words in trying to describe my reaction here, and even as I used words like "telling the truth" I was thinking, "But of course it's not that he is always truthful or even always blunt, or that he just prizes honesty because he plainly doesn't a lot of the time." It was more just that Draco has this consistent voice, particularly the way he acts towards Harry and what Harry feels about him.

I think really, it's partially got to do with irreverence. Particularly in OotP when Harry was so bunged up and Draco was just so *up.* I mean, even in previous books Harry is never like Draco in terms of being silly or clownish. In fact, the entire power the Draco has over Harry, such as it is, appears to be in making Harry feel stupid. People love to say that Harry barely notices him, but he does. Draco still means the same important things to him as he always does. So I think it's like I said to tinderblast, that when Draco says something obnoxious to someone it's usually something that will remind the person that they're an idiot, or make the situation seem ridiculous or play up the fun in what he's doing. And it's kind of hard to make him look ridiculous because despite what Harry says, Draco just doesn't have his sense of dignity or he wouldn't be falling on the ground and pretending to be a Dementor. He's got vulnerabilties, sure, and it's kind of interesting to think about them when you look at what he chooses to do in any given scene. That he, as ljash said, is able to find the weakness but his insults aren't good...maybe it would almost require too much seriousness for his insults to be good? Sometimes I think part of the problem with Draco is that although he desperately wants and tries to hurt, hurting just doesn't come as naturally to him as one might think. He seems better with entertainment.:-)

My thing here was, I think, that I can come up with lots of reasons why I like him as a character, but I was trying, as Elkins described, to think why I started to look for those in the first place, if you know what I mean. Why didn't he just annoy me like he annoyed other people? Why did I find him funny and likable right off? Why do I like brat characters? Why do I like this foolish kid who's fainting and clowning and getting hurt and falling over and isn't so bad at sports, but isn't the best and oh yeah, is a great bigot? It must have something to do with my liking the kind of commentary he provides, and maybe as the books go on his pov has gotten even closer to mine, or seems like an even better compliment to Harry.

Also I think maybe I do like the fact that he certainly seems to be about secrets and truth. His whole history, his house, his absolute love of them.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

That he, as ljash said, is able to find the weakness but his insults aren't good...maybe it would almost require too much seriousness for his insults to be good? Sometimes I think part of the problem with Draco is that although he desperately wants and tries to hurt, hurting just doesn't come as naturally to him as one might think. He seems better with entertainment.:-)

Ooh. That's interesting.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Oh, my lovely Sister M, beacon of everything that is shiny and right. As you may be able to predict, I agree with you completely! (also I read that book, 'The Hollow', and while I liked Obsessive Artist Lady best, I mean... YES. 'No, I shall lie to him about something as important as his father's death. Yay. Lies.')

I also take this opportunity to mark that you are smarter than me, since I cheerfully sat around thinking Draco was a nasty little liar apart from in Care of Magical Creatures, when he was a Beacon of Holy Truth. Until I reflected that this didn't actually make very much with the sense, and went back and realised that Draco is the Most Horrible Liar of All Time. To which everyone agreed until I appended 'I mean, not good at it.' Because everything he says that's not true, he's clearly trying to believe *is* true. (Unless he's, you know, claiming that Harry has psychotic episodes.) But everything he says seriously.

At this point, I will stop and admire Elkins' essays (which really OMG make me want to meta until I fall down, and inspired the only time I ever really did off my own bat) and which clearly and more importantly inspire you. And also, I will admire Order of the Phoenix, a book which helps me so much with the meta that I forgive it for the Neville Love. Because, dude, Draco's been saying for years that Harry is soaking up all this attention that he thinks he deserves. and boy, howdy.

Oh Draco, Draco. *pictures him, oddly enough, like Cordelia from Buffy.* Put him on Veritaserum in CoMC, and who'd notice the difference? Not that I'm saying he'd want to say everything about himself, but everything he wants to hide is horribly obvious, anyway.
Ahem! Let us make him a spy for the side of light in Voldemort's camp. For the sheer humour of it all.
Which is to say that I love him too.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Yay for obsessive artist lady and for Elkins!

And yeah, that's just what was going through my head when I was trying to puzzle this out: Draco says things that are true! Except when he says things he just wishes were true! Except when he says things he knows are not true but also knows they will bug other people if he says them anyway! Except when he can't face what is really true because he's in denial!

Okay, so he's like every single other character: sometimes he tells the truth, sometimes he intentionally lies, other times he lies unintentionally and sometimes he lies to himself. I just happen to like the times he tells the truth better than I like the times, say, Harry tells the truth or Dumbledore tells the truth--oh wait, I can't honestly think of any time Dumbledore has struck me as just telling the whole truth.

And also, I think, it's that getting into OotP especially he almost seems to revel in the fact that he's the character that's not allowed anything but his big mouth. He can't ever really score points off Harry or his friends, he's never really going to be a bad ass, his father's never going to want him on a Super Sekrit Mission just the two of them, Harry's never going to think he's cool, Harry's always going to look at him like he's dipped in shit, he's never going to win a fight, even against Longbottom, he's never going to beat Hermione in an exam, he's never going to beat Harry at Quidditch. So he can just run around saying, "Weeeee! Look at me! I'm bugging Harry because I don't care! I can say whatever I want! La la la!" There's like this element of gallows humor in everything about him now, because he's doomed and nobody cares so he's just going to grab as much attention as he can on the way to the scaffold, even if people occasionally throw tomatoes.

And maybe as the books go on that really is more the way I tend to be. Like, hey! Everything I believe is considered Ker-AZY in this universe but I won't shut up either! Blah blah blah!

if i may comment without reading the comments

[issen4.livejournal.com]

Anyway, you can see the pattern. I just can't help it, though. It's not that I can't lie, it's just there are certain things where I feel like you should be able to tell it like it is.

I used to do that, until my mum gave her big, grown-up daughter a huge talking-to, about being 'rude'. I was very upset by that, but I see her point. It's not that she thinks we should hide the truth, or gloss over it, but she thinks that it is rude and hurtful to tell the truth at just the time when it does the most damage. But then my mum's the traditional sort who feels that one ought to be tactful and be aware of appearances all the time.

In fact, I was recently reading a great Agatha Christie where at the end (no spoilers) Poirot says that he expects the victim's 12-year-old son to come to him in a few years and ask for the details of his parent's murder. A character says, "You won't tell him, will you?" He says of course he will. This boy, like him, prizes truth above all else. Truth, even if it's bad, can be understood and put into the pattern. To her, the most important thing is that people not be hurt. To him the most important thing is knowing how things really are/really happened/really work. I hated the woman character in that moment, and I knew why the little boy was my favorite character.

I'd feel the same way. But I think there's a difference between telling the boy when he asks, and flinging out the accusation "Your father's a murderer!" in the middle of an argument.

Re: if i may comment without reading the comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. I mean, if I felt I was being rude (and in general I have pretty normal radar for rudeness) I wouldn't say a thing. I couldn't agree more that there's times when telling someone something just because it's true is wrong-actually, it reminds me of those girls in junior high who would tell somebody whatever nasty thing somebody said about them. Yeah, it's true, but there's usually no reason to tell the person than to hurt their feelings. I think we might be talking about two different things, because I explained myself badly in the original comment.

I've come to realize that what I meant wasn't really that this character was honest--particularly not in the sense of just blurting things out that are rude, because it actually really annoys me when people are rude and claim they're just being honest, and besides this character seems to keep his mouth shut lots of times like that when he's with a character he respects. So what I came to realize is just that maybe what it really is with this characters is not that he's honest but that he's irreverent about things I think are too serious and need somebody to deflate them.

That's more the type of things I get into trouble about. I don't think anyone thinks of me as being blunt--in fact, people more often come to me for an opinion on how to put something delicately so it's not rude. But I have gotten in trouble for not showing respect for things that I don't think deserve respect, so I'm making a point of talking about them pointing out their absurdity. I mean, to use the example I gave about the singing group, there was really nothing rude in my commenting that after rejecting this girl for three solos it was good to be able to give her one. The joke wasn't on the girl, it was on us being so silly in trying to pretend we didn't feel that way.

Heh--not that this describes Draco's personality in canon. It's just there's this overlap for me in some of the things he says, and also his character almost meta-wise can't help but do that, so I think that's maybe why I just warm to him. It might be the reason many people like the character, and go a long way towards explaining Fanon!Draco.

Sorry I just went on and on again. I'm just getting really into figuring out what I really meant.:-)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Hey, did you know Elkins fangirls you?

It's long because it's about ME ME ME.

Clearly you are Real!Life!Harry ;)

This is where I think I really do identify with Draco and it has often gotten me in trouble.

Bwahahaha, me too.
There's a Linda Goodman book I used to love when I was little about some star signs interacting, and how Sagittarians (which I'm not even, so god knows why I do it) always insult people, not because they necessarily mean to be cruel but because they assume everyone sees themselves the same way they do: warts and all.
So they say insensitive things and people rebutt furiously and they're all kind of confused: 'Like, what does me being fat, for example, have to do with your lack of maths ability?'
With Draco (and as I sometimes can be *slaps own wrist*) you have a more vicious approach where someone is adept at noticing flaws (I do think anyone who constantly criticises others has esteem issues of their own, and whether they admit it or not, probably recognises their own mistakes regularly, though) and will use them, and of course, people with this kind of simple Gryffindorish mindset will be horrified: 'Like, so what if it's true that I'm X or Y? You didn't have to say it!'
(Love that part where all the Weasleys are horrified and ashamed of Percy saying something that would be obvious to a blind monkey.)
There's this idea that because one finds it easy to understand people and their motivations, that you should care, so there's complete horror at the idea of someone recognising flaws and not softening them.
And of course, with the HP books, there's this wild hypocrisy, because Draco (and Snape) is constantly being confronted with 'truths': you're not as good as Harry, your dad deserves whatever he gets, you're pathetic and obsess over petty grudges; and no-one sees any reason to sugar-coat any of this.

But of course, there's a mixture between these two types of insensitivity - so you have Draco making an effort and flubbing it because he's tactless and you have Draco purposely being cruel.
What interests me about him, in this case, is the vast difference of opinion the fans and naysayers have: the fans tend to (forgive me for generalising) adore that he states exactly what they're thinking or the truth, whereas the detractors very much seem to have this idea of him as a liar - he exaggerates injuries, he misleads in the Skeeter articles...
That actually cracks me up as an example, because it's quite clever: there's lots of insinuations from Skeeter and Pansy and Draco, but from a legal standpoint, I don't think Harry et al would have much of a case ((of course in the JKR-verse the law would no doubt be wildly sympathetic and libel legislation much stricter! ;)) and there's much half-truths: Harry makes friends with dangerous creatures, everyone's scared in Hagrid's lessons, "most people thought Potter was behind (the CoS attacks)", said attacks were hushed up, Hermione's "brainy" enough to make a love potion...
But because Skeeter and her interviewees are very carefully skewing the information their way to impact negatively, people are horrified and dismiss it all as 'lies'. When of course, Harry et al's information is equally one-sided and biased, it's just that we see it as fair and truthful because he's our POV character.
(This reminds me of the snarkery, and how many discrepancies there are between Harry's memories and interpretations of certain events and how they appear in canon, sometimes instantly - he immediately recalls Seamus 'attack'ing him; he forgets Ginny's possession; he recalls how cowardly Malfoy was in the forest and conveniently omits his own terror; he wavers from being convinced that his life is only intact because of luck and the help of his friends, and viewing himself as the lone hero in every situation; he describes Buckbeak as 'cute'...)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hey, did you know Elkins fangirls you?

Wh...wh...wha...what? Oh my god I didn't even think she knew who I was now I'm like giggling and blushing though you can't see it.

With Draco (and as I sometimes can be *slaps own wrist*) you have a more vicious approach where someone is adept at noticing flaws (I do think anyone who constantly criticises others has esteem issues of their own, and whether they admit it or not, probably recognises their own mistakes regularly, though

I think so too. I mean, not in a fluffy way like, "Awww, he just needs a hug. We should feel sorry for him when he's cruel to others!" But just yeah, he really does seem like somebody who's constantly aware of all the ways he falls short. How could he not be? The boy's school career is one public humiliation after another! I'm sure JKR would disagree, but I can't help but imagine him laughing about some of those failures because they're just too public for him to demand that everybody in Slytherin pretend they didn't happen, you know? I mean, we do hear things like how Draco no longer walked around like he owned the place after Lucius was kicked off the Board of Governors, which would indicate he had to adjust his attitude in response to life's smackdown.

What interests me about him, in this case, is the vast difference of opinion the fans and naysayers have: the fans tend to (forgive me for generalising) adore that he states exactly what they're thinking or the truth, whereas the detractors very much seem to have this idea of him as a liar - he exaggerates injuries, he misleads in the Skeeter articles...

This is so true--he's the sword of truth but he's not a liar either. This seems so obvious to me in the text. Like with Buckbeak, it cracks me up when people say he "faked" his injury. Of course he didn't fake it--we saw it! What he did was milk it for all it was worth. He used it to his advantage with Pansy and in Potions, but he didn't fake an injury to get Buckbeak in trouble. And with the Skeeter articles too--well, it's the same trouble as always, that they are in their way probably more accurate than the stuff in the Quibbler because they stay away from outright lies by selectively quoting. Trouble is there's no way that the Trio stands for ultimate truth either. They want to control public opinion too, and love the idea of cover-ups when it's on their side. In the chapter of OotP I just read when Ron asks about evidence that Snape is no longer loyal to Voldemort Hermione scolds him by saying Dumbledore must have loads of evidence he's just not sharing.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Heehee, you are a blushing schoolgirl!
I have found the link in my weird archivy-obsessional-way and now will quietly ship sistermagpie/skelkins.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/anaid_rabbit/103382.html?thread=251350#t251350

Well, yeah. I maybe be projecting or something, but every critical person I've ever known including myself is also very aware of their own flaws. Comes with the package.

And yes, just getting embarrassed is an indication that whatever insults/remarks on his failings have made an impact - basically, that he recognises the truth in them.
I mean, what cracks me up about Harry is that he hears things like 'People think you want them to worship you' and 'Stop attacking your mates' and he genuinely cannot see any grain of truth whatsoever and is baffled and angry, like a child.
Whereas there's no way Draco cannot recognise the truths people use against him - his dad is a 'baddie', he doesn't win as often as or against Harry at Quidditch, his grades aren't as good as Hermione's; and after a brief kind of denial (which I always kind of sympathise with, since his excuses usually have truth in them too - as far as we know, Hermione's grades are down to her natural intelligence, but inarguably the teachers do have favourites and she is one. Harry does get special treatment because of his status. Hagrid did fuck up teaching.) he appears to recognise this. Thus the anger and embarrassment. Poor woob.

because they stay away from outright lies by selectively quoting.

Well, exactly. They appear to be telling the truth to an extent - some people who attend school with HP and HG have low opinions of them and think they're capable of anything. It's not true from HP and HG's perspective, but then that's the problem with opinion versus fact.
Harry's Quibbler article probably looks like a bunch of self-stroking exaggerations to the Slytherin kids, because it's not their opinion.
They're all as bad as each other (Trio versus Malfoy's court - you're right, there's no outrage over Dumbledore's "hush...up" in CoS because it benefits them; Quibbler versus Prophet; Dumbledore versus Fudge), so my only problem is when these equally flawed institutions are segregated and one is made to look saintly, the other evil.