Professional Amateurs and Amateur Professionals

[sistermagpie]

Since my alter ego has so far not been represented on my flist:

You scored as Remus Lupin. Your alter ego is Remus Lupin. You are a wise and caring wizard and a good, loyal friend to boot. However sometimes in an effort to be liked by others you can let things slide by which ordinairly you would protest about. </td> Remus Lupin 75% Severus Snape 70% Hermione Granger 65% Harry Potter 60% Ron Weasley 50% Draco Malfoy 40% Sirius Black 30% Peter Pettigrew 20% Albus Dumbledore 15% Lord Voldemort 10% Your Harry Potter Alter Ego Is...? created with QuizFarm.com

you can let things slide by which ordinairly you would protest about Like the fact that it's o-r-d-i-n-a-r-i-l-y? ;-)

You know, it's almost more interesting seeing the rankings of different people's characters. A Snape with a #1 backup of Harry must be very different than my Remus with #1 backup of Snape. It's all the way you blend then, man.

Also I forget to mention the world-changing news (and by "world" I mean about six inches all around me) that I got a new chair. See, you all had no idea that for the past few months I've been sitting at a chair at home which had lost all of its caning little by little. I wrote that Petunia thing sitting on what was essentially an oversized square toilet where you could never put the seat down. I just didn't think about it until the roommate had to borrow my computer and tried it herself and failed. I went to Staples and got one on-sale. There's no telling how much I'll be writing now I'm not balancing by butt on an empty wooden frame. Mwahahaha!

By the way, I'm really enjoying all the

Harriet the Spy was never a very important book for me. I liked it, but it wouldn't ever be a book I said would shape my life or anything. Except for one line in it that I always remember and often find reason to remind myself of. There's some moment when Harriet asks Sport a very basic question and the narrator says something like, "Harriet never had a problem asking about something she didn't know. She just thought, 'Well, I'll ask about it and he'll tell me. Then I won't not know anymore."

Which is not to say there aren't times when I don't pretend I know about stuff when I'm completely lost if I think it will make me look stupid. But for me this comment refers to things that I just really have no way of knowing yet because it's new to me, or I'm a beginner, or for whatever reason I'm just not up to speed yet. If I was 16 years old and putting my first story up on an lj, sure I'd probably be hurt if people called me an idiot over it. If I felt like I was entering a place where being new and learning meant I was fresh meat to be torn apart I wouldn't be part of that either. And certainly nobody should be part of an artistic community that's trying to tear each other down rather than genuinely make each other better--though apparently some people thrive in that environment.

But the thing is too, that in my experience people who genuinely want to improve and have a realistic idea of their own work find others like that, and I don't think the big generalizations about who's behaving badly work. If you've got a critic and an author they're both people; both can affect the other; both are responsible for their own behavior--just like any interaction, neither one of them gets a free pass. I've read a lot interesting stuff lately that I agree with on, for instance, the danger of mediocrity, and that's very different from taking one side or the other and saying nobody should ever post this or that. For instance, in one of several threads on the subject of badfic one poster championing the writer completely lost me by sharing a personal story that was supposed to convince me--the story of how she quit writing forever because somebody gave her what to me sounded like an important bit of criticism. I mean, I'm reading the comment about how she used to write all the time and then somebody said THIS and I literally expected the next sentence to be, "I didn't like it at first but then I went back and looked at my writing and to this day I've always appreciated that criticism. That was the day I really started becoming a writer," or whatever. Imagine my surprise that the moral of the story was that the critic was a monster. It wasn't that I decided, "Hmmph. This person must suck!" It was just that it showed just how impossible it was to say there was just a right way to give feedback, because here was something probably more young girls should hear and understand (I thought) being put on the same level as an anonymous personal flame on a hate thread. That made think whoa-this isn't a thread about vicious behavior at all, it's about no criticism ever unless it's exactly what the author wants to hear and who's got time for that?

Some people would say that a reaction like that simply means the person shouldn't be writing. I don't know if that's true. Everybody writes for different reasons. Saying you can't write unless you're trying to get to the point where you write at a publishable level is a bit like saying fanfic should never be an end in itself because people should ONLY write fanfic to move on to profic--which is silly. A person can write for her own personal enjoyment rather than the enjoyment of others. If she wants to share that stuff with an audience that's okay too--with the understanding that somebody might say, "Hey, if you're going to share this with an audience you really need to think of the audience, and that probably means improving your style." I'm sure most people who would critique run-on sentences in fanfic, for instance, would never think of saying the same thing about somebody's private diary entry. But I think people are making things unnecessarily hard on themselves by being angry at someone for *thinking* they're writing for a different reason than they are, or for criticizing something in a way they don't like. It's just like...how is that person supposed to know what feedback is correct? How could they know how sensitive you were? Maybe this person thinks they're doing you a favor. The way we take a comment isn't always proof of the way it was intended and the way we react to comment really isn’t necessarily the way anyone would have reacted so clearly the person should have known better. As teasel said very well on this thread, the best way to avoid vicious fanfic is to have a community in which constructive concrit is encouraged and writers are expected to take some responsibility for their reactions.

I mean, when it comes down to it nobody can make you stop writing. Only you do that. That doesn't mean you can't ever be hurt by criticism or whatever--of course you can. Maybe some criticism makes you feel in a way that makes writing not fun anymore and you decide to quit because of that. But particularly if you supposedly have a love of a particular art form, it's up to you what you're going to do with it. I just don't really get how you can quit because of *other* people. For instance, Bob Fosse went into choreography because he knew he would never be as good a dancer as Fred Astaire and if he couldn't stand not being up to the level he wanted. That's a good example of somebody making a reasonable decision to do something else. Or somebody who just doesn't like the life of a professional actor or writer with all the rejection and no money so channels their energies into something else. That's another example of someone making a good decision to quit, but it's not the fault of the cruel world just because hey, the world is what it is. Of course it'd be easier to be an actor if there was no risk of ridicule or politics or rejection or anonymity, but that's the reality of it.

Any vaguely artistic business is hard to succeed in, which is why to be honest, people who work in one are all too happy to see anybody else give up. Yes, we want to inspire talented people to produce good work so that we can enjoy it, but it would actually make things a lot easier on me as an editor, for instance, if somebody who doesn't write very well DOESN'T send something to me. In my personal experience, the worst type of author to work with is the "professional" writer. "Professional" writers differ from professional writers in that they are actually professional amateurs. Often they're women, in my experience, and they all have very strong ideas about how they're supposed to be treated and nurtured as a professional, which translates into truly unreasonable demands, accusations that they're being oppressed and, ultimately, no work for them in the future. So I'm actually not really upset when that kind of attitude is encouraged in fanfic, since at least it's in the amateur realm where it belongs.

So I don't know. I think the main problem with fanfic is you probably do have two very different types of people writing it: those who want to be professionals and those who want to be amateurs--and I'm not using the word amateur as an insult. I just mean amateur in the sense that the writing is about personal expression--it's about the author herself rather than the work. Like I said, sometimes the amateur attitude shows up in the professional world, just as the professional attitude is very often present in fanfic. If somebody really wants to be professional, then developing a thick skin probably is a good idea. Or really not so much a thick skin, but a reason to keep writing for its own sake that doesn't depend on any reaction you may or may not get from the public. If the real goal is to actually produce better fic than of course it makes sense to present criticism in a way it’s going to be heard. Sometimes, as strange as it sounds, even snarky threads contribute to that. It’s like any other culture—if something is looked down upon by the culture it’s probably more likely to be rare. Fear of posting anything because people attack anything personally even it’s good would be a bad thing. The desire to avoid posting something badly-written because the culture values good writing is a good thing. As harsh as it is, I suspect that while the fandom culture perceived as nurturing of self-esteem and valuing personal expression will produce more writers, it’s the fandom culture perceived as having intimidating standards that’s going to writers of better quality. Ideally, of course, we should have both, but if I was going to lean one way or the other, I’d lean towards the latter culture

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

see, but the central part of the 'amateur' writing is that is is quite often a collective thing!

i remember the first time after many years oif reading fanfic when i felt the urge to write it was after i joined LJ, met folks, became part of a community but not really...b/c i didn't write. fandom often discriminates against non writers and that, coupled with the writing-as-communicating-about-your-favorite-characters, i think, brings many people to share things that a lot of us would rather not have seen...

in other words, fic at that level becomes an almost one-on-one (or one-on-however many) intimate conversation, a joke, a game, an enjoyable exercise. with LJs bizarre half public/half private role, however, we suddenly are exposed to what previously remained private, remained in chat rooms or emails or private conversations.

personally, i think the question is not about writing but about publishing. i write...badly. that doesn't mean i need to share it with the world. i don't think that makes me a professional :-) just a person with a high propensity for shame, maybe :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think I agree with what you're saying. The kind of writing you're talking about, which is more of a conversation between fans or a game, is just as valid as writing for any other reason. The trouble seems to come, imo, when the two get mixed up.

For instance, I feel like if you wrote something for social reasons and somebody critiqued it as if you were writing it to be criticized on a professional level, there would be a miscommunication there, but the critic wouldn't necessarily have intentionally insulted you. This just may have been what they thought they were supposed to do because that's the side of the writing part of fandom they're in. If the person was ridiculing you it would be possibly mean and also pointless, like holding up an ad in a magazine and complaining that there was no plot or characterization. If we're going to have lots of different people in a fandom we all have to make room for each other.

But then, if I were to submit a story I wrote as a game between friends to an archive and it was rejected and criticized, it would be silly of me to get angry and shoot back that they were wrong for criticizing me since I was just writing a joke for friends, since the archive describes itself as a place for writing-for-net-publication. Similarly on some of the other threads, sometimes people seemed to want the kind of feedback intended for published work--but only the good kind. They were hurt not because their non-serious work was critiqued seriously, but because their serious work received serious criticism that wasn't glowingly positive.

Of course in fandom it's always going to be confusing because it's all "published" the same way--on the net. You and somebody else might both "publish" something in your lj, only you're not wanting it to be considered as a piece of professional writing and somebody else does. You're saying hey, I'm an amateur, I'm doing this for such and such a reason. Somebody else might be an amateur literally but approaching things more as a professional.

The people I described in my post, for instance, are professional amateurs because they *are* trying to work as professional writers with actual publishers...they just have this bizarre idea of how that's supposed to work!

*hope this comment works*

[shusu.livejournal.com]

I agree on the amateur side of it. It's a social activity. Once a published writer-friend of mine told me she was envious of my "fanbase". Years later, even though I've withdrawn from a lot of fannish activities, I still have an LJ, a site, and a propensity to self-advertise.

I mused on the line between the two some time ago... maybe that's the element I missed. We're all backstage having a laugh, not sweating over the curtain coming up.

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I've talked so much on the subject that I can hardly bear to talk anymore, but I just wanted to say that I thought this was a very insightful and well thought-out post.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I know what you mean--there's been so many interesting things said on the subject lately (yours included!) it's kind of overwhelming!

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I remember reading once about a group of Southwest American Indians who lived in close quarters with each other.

Occasionally they would do "shows" where several performers would wear masks and perform a skit. Many times the skit was about one of the other members of the community doing something "wrong". It was a method of pointing out problems within the community, yet it was not overtly hurtful; the person on the receiving end of the skit would understand, and mend their ways, and next week it would be someone else. A rather unique approach.

I think you're absolutely right that too often the writer takes the criticism as a direct personal insult. The amateur view generally cannot separate the person from the writing. Certainly criticism hurts, and sometimes it feels personal, but in the end it is all up to the writer what to do next. Is the criticism valid or not? is the question the writer should be asking first. If so, then how can I apply it? should be the next question. If not, then it can be discarded, unless other criticism brings it up again. That's what criticism is about. And oftentimes I think that people don't write directly what they're thinking; they leave some thoughts by the wayside as too cruel. The badfic communities often are very free to say anything, and won't mince words, though the first question still needs to be asked.

There is a culture in place in the States today, I would argue, that fosters dreams and seems to insinuate that all dreaming is good and should be encouraged no matter what, and that one should never give up, despite the odds. While this is an admirable mindset, it still should be noted that reality is a more powerful force, and it is actually much more profitable and pragmatic to "Know thyself" instead of working towards an unreachable goal. If you know your strengths and weaknesses, you aren't going to go on American Idol and claim that you are the next Idol and that you have the most amazing voice of all time; you're going to know that you're a better gymnast than a vocalist and not waste your time arguing with the "short-sighted" judges. Unfortunately it has become tremendously bad form to discourage anyone from dreaming, when it should be commonplace to analyze pros and cons and know when one hasn't got a chance. It is lovely to dream, and it's nice to make an attempt to bring it into reality, but if it isn't working, then it should be re-analyzed. Obviously now I'll be called a terrible dream-crusher for saying it, and people will point out oodles of circumstances where someone famous received four million rejection slips before being published, but still, I think a bit of logic is helpful in most situations, and a modicum of self-analysis is a powerful tool. Whew, got rather long-winded there, sorry.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

No, I appreciate the long wind! And that's a really interesting story about that Native American practice--it sounds like a good way to create a "safe" environment for criticism where everyone knows the rules.

ITA about this culture of "dreams" especially in the US. There was a really interesting interview with Justin Theroux in "Wrapped in Plastic" where he was talking about Mulholland Drive and saying that he made the distinction by saying there were "dreams" and there were "fantasies." A dream, for instance, was when a kid who was the best ball player in his community went to try out for the major leagues because hey, why not? It's a dream, but it's attached to reality.

LA, he felt, catered to *fantasies.* So there were all these people like the character Naomi Watts plays in MD saying that they won a jitterbug contest and that "led to acting. Well, wanting to act." Because so many people just want to be a celebrity and have no interest in acting as a skill or anything--he said it's like if he showed up in Florida and said, "Hi, I'm here. Now I'm an astronaut." So there's the disconnect between reality and fantasy that's bound to lead to disappointment at best. There's nothing wrong with a little realism, really.

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

Skirting 99% of your very interesting and insightful post because I'm still digesting what you've said...but, I thought I'd just say the following:

I mean, when it comes down to it nobody can make you stop writing.

Totally agree with you. No one else besides you can make you stop doing whatever you enjoy, be it fic/non-fic writing, crit, discussion, meta, art, or anything else.

I just don't really get how you can quit because of *other* people.

Well, I'll use an example from my own experience. I used to be in a particular fandom. I got really involved in it. Emotionally, I mean. Met many people, made lots of friends, wrote fic, read fic, etc. Then, a series of events happened within that fandom that I found very unpleasant, uncalled for, and over-the-top in terms of behavior. Events that made me and a lot of my new-found friends unhappy. At that point, I said to myself, "Why on earth am I participating in this forum where me and people I care about are being hurt? Screw this, I'm outta here." So I quit writing in that fandom.

I almost stopped writing all together at that point because, well, I don't write because I have some great passion for being a Writer (with a capital W :-) or grand aspirations to be a professional writer (been there, done that with non-fic, at least). I write because I want to share my stories with other people. For me, it's about the audience, and having an audience. I would be (and was, for 17-odd years) quite happy and entertained with having those stories live in my head and never putting them on paper. When I discovered fandom, I realized, "Oh hey, some other people might be interested in these ideas too. Why not write them down and share them around?" So I did.

But see, and this is only speaking for my experience here, if the audience is hostile, or if the writing I do falls into metaphorical dead air, then I think: "Hmmm, why am I putting all this effort into translating these ideas in my head into words, putting them on metaphorical paper and sharing them--an act that takes a fair amount of work, for me at least!-- if the audience couldn't care less? Or if the audience just wants to ridicule me, or ridicule my friends, etc.? Why not just let these ideas hang around in my head where at least *I'll* enjoy them, and not have the hassle of writing them down? :-)"

I don't know if I've explained it well enough, but this is one reason why people can stop writing because of other people. It's not necessarily a case of "Ouch, that crit hurt! I bared my soul, got shot down, and now I'm so traumatized now that I'll never write again!" I can also be a case of, "Gee, writing takes a lot of effort. There are zillions of other things I could be doing with that same amount of effort that would make me much happier." Or, "Gah, I had the most awful time with that batch of people. Writing just reminds me of how horrible that time was."

But particularly if you supposedly have a love of a particular art form, it's up to you what you're going to do with it.

And maybe that's exactly it. If you're *not* in it for the art form, then perhaps it's easier for your interactions with other people to make a huge difference if whether you want to continue participating or not.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, that is a good point and definitely something I experience a lot. A lot of fandom is community based so there's really no way that the community can't be part of your experience. You'd have to be seriously cut off to be able to not react at all to the environment. I think fandom often creates an environment that makes people just not want to write for it--which is different, I guess, from it making a person give up writing as something they personally enjoy. One of the points in recent discussions for instance, is that while on one hand there may be people who shy away from writing because they don't like criticism, there's also good authors who are driven out of fandoms by mediocrity. They don't feel like they can't write if they want to, I guess, it's just that they're not going to participate in that community.

I wouldn't want to put down writing-as-a-social-activity either, because there's nothing wrong with it as that. It's like dancing, for instance: there's nothing wrong with just wanting to go out and dance socially without having any burning desire to join ABT. If it gets to where there's nobody you want to dance with at a particular place you're going to stop going there and maybe therefore stop dancing. Not because you're turning away from the thing you love but just because you're not getting anything out of it to make you continue.

So yeah, that is a good example of a way fandom can make you stop writing--and a healthy example, I think. In fact, even if you do really want to be a professional writer there's a time where you should ask whether what you're doing is making you happy. Sometimes I think people can feel like they're supposed to "want" to be an artist long after they stop getting any real pleasure out of it. There's nothing wrong in a person saying that they realized they were actually happier or more fulfilled as a teacher, for instance, than they were as an unemployed actor, and that that gave them a good outlet for their need to perform.

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

I don't take part of any of the badfic communities because they just don't interest me. I do have people of my flist that do and I'd never bash them for their involvement. (I didn't even know deleterius existed until last week when I was reading my fof list. Anyway, it bored me about 5 minutes into reading and I moved on). I'd rather read good fanfic than bad fanfic, I guess.

I will say I don't like the idea that criticism is bad in fanfic. I know, people write for fun and fandom shouldn't be an unhappy place where one feels insecure and uncomfortable, but... I think sometimes everyone treads so lightly about concrit and reviews lest the writers gets offended or the opposite occurs and there's a lot mocking and nastiness. Where's the middle ground in all this?

I don't like the idea that one should only leave positive reviews or nothing at all. Although I am guilty of this, too. I feel insecure about leaving less than glowing reviews, especially with some beloved fics and writers. I'm starting to get off-topic here, so I'll leave it at that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's like people talked about in the other thread--hate threads and badfic can get pretty boring pretty quickly. It's kind of like MST3K itself--it's always better if it's a GOOD bad movie than a bad bad movie. The one time I went to Fanfic_hate it seemed like people were much more interested in tearing down better fic they felt was overrated or whose author was a BNF they didn't like. Not only did people probably have more to say about those but I even suspect that critiquing them might have been a better way to talk about what makes fic good, you know? Like, if you have a good fic but somebody is complaining about one aspect it's almost easier to see how to improve it.

I think there's a good reason people are insecure about leaving less-than-good reviews. After all, some people have even put up rants in their lj about how you have no right to criticize unless they've asked you personally for criticism. And sometimes, more understandably, writers do just consider the source. If somebody whose work they admire has something to say they are going to listen to them more than an anonymous person--heh--it's like that Simpsons ep where Mel Gibson makes the mistake of listening to Homer about the movie he's making.

Sometimes I think it's just a case of listening to what the criticism is-I've come to see that criticism can be a skill just like anything else. Some people really just don't get that story conferencing and telling the person what they should have done=!constructive criticism. "Neville and Draco would never be together!" is not criticism. "This is boring" is not constructive criticism. Not everybody really gets it. And even for those who do, they never know when they're going to say something like, "I felt like it took a long time for the story to get started. The opening three chapters of Harry making his bologna sandwich made me think this was a story about mustard. Perhaps you might want to start closer to the moment Draco appears at his door naked," and get back, "Puh-leez! u r so meen. im writing for my bffs and every1 else sez it R0XORRR!!11" Followed by thirteen earnest posts about how mean you are.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Great post. Thankfully I missed the comment you were talking about, or I might have had to rant at that girl (or not, if it was in AQ's journal, since I was baleeted and banned omg).

those who want to be professionals and those who want to be amateurs

I'm not sure those are the right words to use, though, because I know plenty of writers who have no desire to be published professionally (myself included) but who make every effort to be a better writer, to make sure their fics are grammatically correct, spell-checked, realistic, etc. Certainly I want my work to be up to professional standards. But I have no desire to be anything other than an amateur when it comes to actually being published, because I'm perfectly happy with my current career. (Though if I ever wrote anything original, I'd submit it to various places in hopes of earning some extra cash, yes.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure those are the right words to use, though, because I know plenty of writers who have no desire to be published professionally (myself included) but who make every effort to be a better writer, to make sure their fics are grammatically correct, spell-checked, realistic, etc.

They probably are the wrong words. I think when I was thinking of people who "want to be professionals" I meant what you're describing-not necessarily the desire to be published, but the desire to write as professional (meaning as well, not as salable) as they can. I'm the same way as you are, I think, about things. Like, I remember once somebody suggesting I go to his voice teacher and he said, "Since you're not a professional he'd go easy on you," and I thought hey, if I was going to go to his class I would want him to treat me as if I was a professional--I mean, even if I have no desire to literally be one I'd want to be the best singer I could be. The idea of having a lower standard just because I wasn't going to make money off it didn't make sense to me.

I do the same thing with dance, really. I'm not professional level, I'm not going to be a professional. That doesn't bother me. But I try to approach classes with the same attitude, and I want to be as good as I can be. I think there's a lot of writers like that in fandom--there are plenty of fanfic writers who have no interest in publishing, or in publishing original fiction, but I would definitely describe as writing at a professional level. And the opposite too--there are people who have carved out some way of making money for themselves in writing despite not having half the skill of some teenaged fanfic writers, and they see no reason to improve because it's all about their personal expression.

[maeglinyedi.livejournal.com]

What an interesting post! I especially like your distinction between the two types of writers in the fandom. I'm not sure which category I fall into, though, since I've never really looked at it like that before.

I was really baffled by your story about the girl who stopped writing after one comment of critique. I absolutely agree with you that no one can make you stop writing except yourself. So that truly baffles me.

When I look at myself and my experiences in fandom: I've received critique in the past (and I'm talking constructive criticism, not the 'OMG you made Harry gay!11!' type flames) and that has always helped me in my writing. When I look at my writing from 2,5 years ago, when I started out writing fanfiction (and writing in English for the first time) and my work now, I can honestly say that I've improved. A lot. But that's all thanks to critique I've received. If it hadn't been for someone politely telling me that perhaps this or that could be improved, I don't think I ever would have tried to improve my writing. I don't think I'd have even realized there was something 'wrong' with what I was doing and that there always is room for improvement and growth in your work.

So to me, critique is very important as part of developing myself as a writer. I have no ambition to become a 'professional, published' writer at this point, but that doesn't mean that I don't take my writing seriously, because I do.

So, yeah, the idea of anyone giving up writing because (part of) their audience gives them pointers as to what can be improved is something I'll probably never understand. It only makes me wonder why these people started writing in the first place and how much they really love it. Not all that much is my guess, because otherwise why give it up so easily?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I suspect most people fall into both all the time--I mean, every writer has things they write more as something for their friends and other things they write more carefully...though they can each become the other so easily!

It is a strange thing to think of "giving up." Not because I can't understand somebody writing a story, putting it up, having it be an unpleasant experience, and so deciding not to do it again. That's perfectly reasonable. It's more this idea that someone really *wants* to write, or *would* be writing something wonderful only somebody said the wrong thing so now they're not going to...the hard truth is probably just that okay, you won't. Nobody's going to miss the stories you would have written because they don't know them. Maybe that's a real shame because you would have written something incredible if everybody had wildly praised your first fic--we'll never know. It's just not anything you can really worry about.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

the danger of mediocrity

Just out of curiosity, can you give me a link? I think 'danger of mediocrity' is a bit much -- mediocrity does not threaten quality! Quality writing is not being eliminated by people who can't write well. Those who can write well will do so. Of course, they might be a bit harder to find in the deluge. If that's the problem, then

the fandom culture perceived as nurturing of self-esteem and valuing personal expression will produce more writers, it’s the fandom culture perceived as having intimidating standards that’s going to writers of better quality

of course the culture with intimidating standards will clear out the poorer writers. You'll be able to find the good writing more easily there. That's fine. But you seem to imply that culture will *produce* writers of better quality. No, it'll simply attract better writers.

I am one of the dreaded Social Writers. I can't even imagine wanting to write fiction for money. When I can spend a year on a story . . . I'd be destitute. :) I have received really helpful critique that informed my writing from my first story on. But the woman asked if I wanted it before she went out of her way to kindly tell me what could be made better and how.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, can you give me a link? I think 'danger of mediocrity' is a bit much -- mediocrity does not threaten quality!

Heh--I didn't know what word to use there. "Danger" sounded a little hysterical to me too, but I couldn't think of another one. It makes it sounds like badfic is going to make us all fall down a manhole.

But I was thinking more just along the kinds of things discussed here. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/mirabellawotr/588640.html)

But you seem to imply that culture will *produce* writers of better quality.

Oh, I don't want to imply that just knowing a fandom has high standards will produce a better writer. I mean what you said, that it will attract better writers, although I do also think that exposure to better writers may help beginners as well, because they're learning by better examples. Also, when I said the culture was "perceived as having intimidating standards" I was assuming this was because criticism was common in that culture. I think a culture where it's considered acceptable to critique another's work, and beginning writers see constructive criticism as being a valuable thing that's not shameful to get might produce better writers. But it would have to be helpful criticism of course--I don't think that a fandom who just told anybody who didn't live up to their standards immediately that they sucked would be helpful at all.

I am one of the dreaded Social Writers.

LOL! I don't think you should be dreaded!

I can't even imagine wanting to write fiction for money. When I can spend a year on a story . . . I'd be destitute. :)

You'd probably be destitute anyway, given what it pays.:-) But anyway, I'm using the word "professional" in a weird way here, because I'm not really thinking of it as meaning that the person wants to write for money so much as just a person who primarily wants to improve their writing and write stuff more people like, things like that. I think I used those words because I've thought more about this more in a professional capacity than a fandom one before now. Maybe instead of professional and amateur I should just say social writers and something else...literary? Does that just sound snobbish?

I have received really helpful critique that informed my writing from my first story on. But the woman asked if I wanted it before she went out of her way to kindly tell me what could be made better and
how.

Yeah, like I said somewhere above, you really do have to be careful about giving critique. First because a lot of people really suck at giving criticism so they can just irritate people.:-) But I can also understand the people who do give good criticism and have never thought they had to ask first. I mean, to some people it's just natural--how else do I react to a story besides saying what I thought about it? That sort of thing. It's weird because there's a social aspect in that too--the person maybe feels like they're trying to talk about the story, and don't see why they can't.

[pauraque]

As is frequently the case, I strongly agree with what you've said here. Quite right about everyone needing to take responsibility for their own behavior. As in any human interaction, people in fandom decide how they behave, and other people decide how to react to that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Well said!

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

So I'm actually not really upset when that kind of attitude is encouraged in fanfic, since at least it's in the amateur realm where it belongs.
I see where you're going with this, but I think it's self-defeating. As long as it's encouraged in any venue in writing--the whole "Writing is for self-expression and no self-expression can possibly be wrong!" attitude--then it's going to keep showing up in the slushpiles, and it's going to keep showing up in author attitudes.

Worse, from a fanfic writer's perspective, it smears the whole concept of fanfic when this is acceptable behavior in the community. I've done some of my best work in fanfic, but I don't dare cite it because the community has such a wretched reputation. I'd like to see fanfic get a little respect as a legitimate form of writing, and that's not going to happen if the community allows for this sort of whiny, drama queen behavior. That's also what gives "amateur" a bad name. Amateurs should be as interested in their craft as professionals are; they just never expect to be paid for it. People who actually love doing a thing are always trying to get better--that's part of the fun. If a person doesn't love doing a thing enough to take it seriously and be as good at it as you possibly can be, then wouldn't it make more sense to find a hobby that inspired more passion? A hobby whose mechanics bore you isn't a very good choice of hobby.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

On the whole "social writing" thing...

Fan writing is definitely a social milieu; I agree on that. But I'm not sure where there's a dichotomy there. I take my writing very seriously, but it's definitely a social activity to share and post it, and to talk about it. There are some excellent conversations that come up in the comments threads, and they seem a little more sociable than some of the OMG!!!111MOREZEES!!!!11!! comments that badfic tends to get. I love it best when they're whole philosophical discussions about whether a character is right or wrong to do something, etc. That's pretty much the way I talk about things with my friends... isn't that social?

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

Fear of posting anything because people attack anything personally even it’s good would be a bad thing. The desire to avoid posting something badly-written because the culture values good writing is a good thing.

That's not harsh at all, actually. In fact, I find this distinction just as important as the one between the amateur and professional writer descriptions. Fanfic (or fiction of any kind) is something I write every once in a great while, purely for fun. Yet I value it enough that I will try and write something the best way I can. Perhaps this comes from the fact that I stumbled onto a very accomplished, maybe even perfectionist corner of the fandom - a culture that values good writing, as you said. People on my f-list clearly spend a lot of time and effort on their work; I would almost feel as if I were insulting their honest effort if I posted shoddy work. I suppose this is what some people call learning by example.

The trouble is, a beginning sixteen year old writer is likely to be writing just for her circle of friends. It must come as quite a shock for that person to find out that a group of (mostly adult) writers are critisizing, even laughing at her work. But it should be a lesson, as well (if not a lesson in writing, then in the realisation that not everyone will always think you're wonderful). So the "social" nature of fanfic cuts both ways, i guess. I would welcome any criticism, because I'm old enough to take the good suggestions and ignore any personal attacks. A very young writer might do best in a more nurturing environment. But with fandom being so big, a lot of times one knows very little about the recipient of their feedback/criticism.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this comes from the fact that I stumbled onto a very accomplished, maybe even perfectionist corner of the fandom - a culture that values good writing, as you said. People on my f-list clearly spend a lot of time and effort on their work; I would almost feel as if I were insulting their honest effort if I posted shoddy work. I suppose this is what some people call learning by example.

Yes, I know just what you mean. It's like any other culture, really. You learn from the fics you read just how the "conversation" works. You could compare it to something as mundane as dress codes, for instance. If you are friends with people who dress up when they have dinner parties, you get that this is part of going to a dinner party. Another group of people might not dress up. If you showed up at their house in a dress they might think you looked a little uncomfortable but not mind. They might even compliment how nice you look. (Or maybe they might eventually think you were intentionally trying to make them look sloppy and get angry--I guess that fits in the metaphor too.) But if you went to the fancy dinner party in jeans you'd probably run the risk of offending people for not showing the proper respect that they are. Both groups might laugh at you for your style of clothes.

The trouble is, a beginning sixteen year old writer is likely to be writing just for her circle of friends. It must come as quite a shock for that person to find out that a group of (mostly adult) writers are critisizing, even laughing at her work. But it should be a lesson, as well (if not a lesson in writing, then in the realisation that not everyone will always think you're wonderful).

Yes, and it also goes back to the question of the fan herself deciding how she's going to react. I mean, some young people would get angry at the adult interference and say, "Why are those loser adults making fun of me for hanging out with my friends and having fun? They suck." But another young writer might think, "Do I care if my fic doesn't meet these kinds of standards, or do I actually want these people to admire my fic because they seem to take these things seriously?" That's why, I think, you often come across teenagers disagreeing with each other as well. Some teens come into a fandom and look for people who are like them according to age, others look for the people who share their interest in writing.

[sleeplessmarea.livejournal.com]

I think the notion people have that it is wrong to say anything (review wise) if you can't say anything nice is actually an extension (corruption?... and this particularly in the fields of education and human service) of our culture's love affair with the concept of Self Esteem.

Apparently in the minds of many, self esteem is something which mentors and friends and nurturing others build up in one another building block by building block out of raw materials like Praise and Positive Feedback and Acceptance and Toleration. While I agree with the concept in principal in a big picture, generalist way, these values are not part of the Way of the Artist.

It is almost a stereotype to say that Great Art must be borne out of suffering, but I say "almost" because there is a truth behind the platitude. If everyone already thinks you're great and lavishes you with flattering commentary, what is left to grow into? Why would anyone ever wnat to work harder and harder to get better and better, to hone skills and stay up late at night poring over a notebood or hovering over your keyboard, if that person were were already awesome?

And about criticism... dear ones. The process of bringing art to life - all art - is indeed like giving birth. Something is created and takes a life of its own which is vulnerable and prone to hurt... truly it is like someone once described to me "part of your heart, walking around outside of you". Uncomfortable, and also impossible to avoid completely.

And that does not mean something is wrong. Quite the contrary.

Writing... art.... well, it's not for wimps! As such it tends to become self selecting over time. The people with real talent... those who also posses a REAL hunger for self-expression... those kinds of people will hang in there and consider even negative feedback. On the other hand those people who write only in order to disappear into a fantasy world for a few hours with friends or else to engage in a self esteem support group probably won't.

And by this I do not mean to judge harshly. Which brings me to my other point. Somepeople really seem to have a knack for giving less than rave feedback (and Magpie, you seem to be one of those people), On the other hand, some don't. When suggesting improvements it really helps to be specific, stick to the words on the page and avoid the use of emotionally laden terms. Here, as in many places, The Golden Rule applies.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Apparently in the minds of many, self esteem is something which mentors and friends and nurturing others build up in one another building block by building block out of raw materials like Praise and Positive Feedback and Acceptance and Toleration. While I agree with the concept in principal in a big picture, generalist way, these values are not part of the Way of the Artist.

This is so true--and in so many areas it seems to lead to problems. I mean, it's not only just the artist's way but any way--eventually a kid is going to not be that good at something. We just happen to now be living at a time, it seems, where people think it's more important for someone to not think they're bad at something than to actually be good at it.

You know, this actually also ties into Elkin's fabulous essay on Elitism in Harry Potter...lemme find a link because I love it: Here it is. (http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000149.html#top)


It makes me think of it because above we talked about how Hollywood etc. seems to always tell people that as long as they don't give up they'll succeed, and besides being unrealistic it also seems to conflate being a "good" person with being "good at" things. In the movies, the heroine often starts out untrained and far behind everyone else in terms of technical skill, but after a montage of hard work their personal style will have them surpass everyone else, most of whom will probably be considered boring robots. I suppose this probably connects to years of that thing I can't write in Italian that means "the art that conceals art," where you were supposed to be good at all things artistic, but pretend you didn't have to practice to get that way. It's no wonder, if people take that seriously, that they can't see how somebody who just tries hard or is "nice" can't write for toffee, while someone less deserving is well-loved as an author. It's like Elkins describes in the essay when she talks about meritocracy--we describe people as being somehow "more deserving" than others but reward whatever skills we really value.

Somepeople really seem to have a knack for giving less than rave feedback (and Magpie, you seem to be one of those people),

Thanks!:-) And it's true, whenever you've got two people interacting they're both going to be at least partially responsible for how it works out. I think that's maybe why people get very tense at posts about how author's feelings aren't hurt, since they know that just as there are people who are genuinely vicious and want to tear authors down, so are some people just not very skilled at offering advice, and others will call criticism an attack even when it isn't. A writer really does need to LEARN to find the helpful criticism amongst everything else, but they can't really do it if they think that anything that isn't pleasant=an attack.

[mark356.livejournal.com]

I love your account of that chair. Anyway, yay for not needing to balance on an empty frame!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! Hurray! Somebody appreciates my new chair!

token shallow comment

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Your Harry Potter Alter Ego Is...? (http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=2338)


O.O Who would have thought.

Re: token shallow comment

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

{{{{Malafede Ron))))

I notice you're more Lord Voldemort than I am, though.