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mirabellawotr brought up something today that really struck a chord with me in this post. She's talking about Remus and Sirius' relationship and considering the possibility that it's not necessarily a happy one or a good basis for fluff.Mira says, "I also think it would be kind of interesting to have that initial euphoria wear off and for the two of them to find that no matter how earnestly they try they just don't have much to say to each other anymore, and maybe there's still a lot of residual bitterness from The Prank floating around, so they go on making tea and being impeccably polite to one another." Now neither she, nor I, is not saying this is the way their relationship must be, but I really liked the idea because to me OotP!Remus and Sirius are incredibly sad people, and not in a way that's conducive to hurt/comfort slash.
I should say personally I don't see them as a couple in canon, but that has no bearing on what I'm talking about here--I'm not adverse to the idea that they are, or that they ever had sex while living at Grimmauld Place. It's just that to me these characters just sum up everything that can be so painful about life. James is considered a tragedy, but stories like his have never really grabbed me. Dying young and handsome in a heroic way is actually not a bad way to die in many ways-in fact, it’s probably more what Sirius would have dreamt of in canon, James Dean-wannabe that he was.
Remus, Sirius and Snape, otoh, they have to live--and they're not living well. Think of who Remus and Sirius in particular were in school. They ruled Hogwarts, broke all the rules and got away with it. McGonnogal talks about them like her favorite sons--this, despite the fact that we know they could be stupid and cruel. Snape's life is pretty horrific, but you get the feeling he never expected much better. He was used to things being awful, what with his parents being unhappy and his being homely, not good at sports and picked on. The best time of his life may well have been Lucius Malfoy seeming to genuinely like him (his son seems to genuinely like him as well), but that didn't lead anywhere good either.
But what about Remus or better yet, Sirius--could he ever really have thought he'd end up where he did? Obviously both of them had their own problems; Remus is a werewolf so I think he is better prepared to deal with a life as an outcast who has to struggle. But Sirius? Yes he fought with his mother but to me this seems to have been a clash of strong personalities that were very similar and not just a case of Sirius having been abused throughout his life. (
fernwithy did a great post on this that very much went along with the way Sirius and Mrs. Black came across to me in OotP here, btw. Iow, without dismissing how painful it must have been for Sirius at home, I think he always had confidence in himself. He left the Black House and went to live with James, he had good friends, he was cocky, he was handsome, he drove his motorcycle. He liked being a rebel. When he left home he was possibly at the age when he knew everything; I suspect the world seemed at his feet.Now here he is at 40 wasted, useless and living with his parents--the ultimate sign of failure for a lot of adults. Also, he's living with Remus. This could be a good thing, in that this is one of his oldest friends, the only real family he's got left. Otoh, the two of them could just be further reminders of how everything turned to crap. Having not seen each other for so many years, and carrying the memory of their younger selves, it would be easy for them to "see" their younger selves when they looked at each other. But look how different they are now. And what have they done in the intervening years that they can talk about? Not much that we can see, sadly. Considering who they were in school I imagine they might have had some pretty big futures laid out. Instead: no job, no family, no homes of their own.
First, let's think about Remus. His days at Hogwarts were probably the only time he wasn't an outsider due to his illness--the time he had friends that accepted him for what he was and even valued him for it. But it didn't last, did it? It was just sort of an illusion. Another illusion was the Great Marauder Friendship. At school it was probably one-for-all and all-for-one, but then James was killed there was suspicion on all sides. I doubt Remus could really trust that he’d never be turned on either. Even after Sirius was exonerated Remus' suspicion of him would still be there, along with Peter's own betrayal and the way they all fell for it. Sadly, they don’t seem to live long enough that we get to see them re-establish a relationship as adults that encompasses all that.
Not to mention, Sirius spends practically all of OotP focused on James—you have to wonder how close he came to just saying flat-out that he wished it had been Remus and not James who had been killed by Voldemort. This may just be because Sirius is romanticizing the past and making James into something perfect for him to believe in, but still, if Harry is being made to feel inadequate for not being his father, surely Remus is feeling that too. He knows James and Sirius were probably the best friends of their group. Not to mention, of all the Marauders, it’s Sirius who almost him in big trouble at school with his Prank. It was James who stopped it, so it's not impossible to imagine Remus, too, wishes he'd been left with Prongs instead of Padfoot. (Though knowing Remus he’d probably just assume if he were with James James would be pining for Sirius.) And that's not even getting into the general awkwardness when two people in the same group who aren't friends with each other get thrown together. The two of them may not be that used to dealing with each other one-on-one, or if they were, that doesn't mean they are used to it now. Heh--now I'm picturing Remus writing for advice: "Dear Ann Landers, I've recently begun living with an old friend from high school..."
On Sirius' side, Remus thought he was guilty for 13 years. Again, so much for any romanticized notion of MWPP being faithful brothers to the end. If he's impatient with Harry for not doing something wild and heroic, I imagine he might feel the same way about Remus, who was never the wildly heroic member of MWPP (rather he seems to have been the closest one to a conscious they had, milquetoast-y version that he was). I wouldn't be surprised if he had convinced himself that James would have broken him out of Azkaban himself or uncovered the real killer because he didn't believe it of Sirius. Being left instead with Remus, who seems more accepting of fate (both his own and Sirius’), might have been even more difficult. I can just easily see Sirius driven crazy by this. In school Sirius probably thought they were Masters of the Universe, but what kind of response would they have had to their adults selves as kids? Both men are described as looking older than their ages too, worn down by life, so there’s the ruined beauty aspect as well.
It’s assumed that Sirius is on edge because of being cooped up in Grimmauld Place, but I don't feel like the most tragic thing about Sirius is that he's stuck back in the house he left which is like Azkaban (as has been pointed out, Sirius dealt better with Azkaban), but rather that there’s no place else he’s got to be. His life seems to be effectively over in OotP--everything is about the past. It seems awful that his mother is constantly haranguing him about bringing half-bloods into the house, but sometimes it seems like that's what’s keeping Sirius alive in the end. It’s the one way he can revisit his glory days, when he probably participated in a million rows and then made grand exit from that house. At 16 this was his great rebellion. At 40 (or however old he is) the only people he's got to rebel against are his mother's portrait and Kreacher--a painting and something that already has to do his bidding. How the mighty have fallen. But would he really have been happier if Dumbledore had gotten him a cozy cottage filled with Precious Moments figurines that said “World’s Best Godfather” he wasn’t allowed to leave instead? That might have driven him crazy faster. Grimmauld Place brought out some of the ugliest sides of his personality, but maybe kept him from feeling completely emasculated by at least giving him ghosts to wrestle.
Confronting one's high school-self, when one was a Big Man on Campus in high school is always a little painful. A lot of guys, though, find ways of staying on top or at least telling themselves that they have. They're no longer fit or have a full head of hair; they can't score the winning touchdown any longer, but they have a family, their sons are strong, they make a lot of money, they have a trophy wife, a big house, a career. They have something in which to take pride. Sirius and Remus are like the dream of the vindictive outcast--the popular guys winding up with nothing, partially due to the very things that made them the popular guys. Even Snape, who unfortunately can't just relax and consider this his revenge, sometimes scores a hit by pointing this out. I mean, speaking from an adult's perspective, even if the Marauders Map can still make Snape boil by making fun of his hair and his nose, Snape's the one with the life because he's the one who can hold down a job and support himself. Trapped as Snape is, he's freer than Sirius or Remus. Not only can Sirius not save Harry’s life, he’s got to be taken care of and protected, just like Harry. The only one of that class at Hogwarts who seems capable of taking an active role in things is Snape.
What’s sad is it’s possible that if a first-year was told these there hate each other because they’re still living their “cool” vs. “uncool” days, the student might just find it ridiculous since none of them are cool now.
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Frankly, I think the best of Snape's life is *now*, as a teacher at Hogwarts. His colleagues seem to like him (in the few times Harry observe the teachers without their knowledge), he has a good, respectable position, and he's fairly well thought of in society, if Fudge (in GoF) and Umbridge (in OotP) are anything to go by. And I doubt he was 'not good at sports', since he's now qualified to referee Quidditch -- that has pretty strict qualifications.
Remus is a werewolf so I think he is better prepared to deal with a life as an outcast who has to struggle.
I think he's more *resigned* to it than Sirius, but he's not any better dealing with it. He gives off a lot of passive-aggressive vibes, and he is irresponsible when it's critical that he NOT be so. I think Remus' school-days left him with some sense of entitlement that he never got over and no clue how to hustle for a living.
[Sirius'] life seems to be effectively over in OotP--everything is about the past.
This is so true. I think he was as sane as he was in PoA and GoF because he had something proactive to focus on -- protecting Harry. When it turned in OotP that he had to be protected, he fell apart.
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That's an excellent point--you're right. I think I was imagining that period in school that led to him joining the DEs might have seemed like more than it was to him and given him grander ideas of what his future would be. But certainly being at Hogwarts now is far better for all the reasons you mentioned. I got the "not good at sports" thing just from remembering that part in the Pensieve where the girl is laughing at him on the broom, which I thought was supposed to be like his missing a baseball or something. But you're right there's no reason to think of him as a hopeless Quidditch player--I just thought he wasn't as good as Super!James.
I think he's more *resigned* to it than Sirius, but he's not any better dealing with it. He gives off a lot of passive-aggressive vibes, and he is irresponsible when it's critical that he NOT be so. I think Remus' school-days left him with some sense of entitlement that he never got over and no clue how to hustle for a living.
Definitely--I was actually trying to think of some way to work something like that into the post. Like...the fact is when Remus does have a job he gets fired, and that's a significant thing, particularly since he behaves very much like his teenaged self. He needles Snape and yes, Snape snaps back at him too, but Snape is still the one making it possible for him to work there, which is more than Remus can do for Snape. He doesn't tell about Sirius' being a dog even when he believes he's a murderer. Then he once again doesn't take his condition seriously enough when he forgets to take his potion. Ultimately he really doesn't seem completely fit for teaching despite showing a talent for some aspects of the job.
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I'm pretty sure that's from an Occlumency lesson, not the Pensieve. Also, the impression I got was that someone had hexed his broomstick; after all, the only other time we've seen a broomstick act like that in the books was when Quirrel hexed Harry's broom during the Quidditch match.
The fact is when Remus does have a job he gets fired, and that's a significant thing, particularly since he behaves very much like his teenaged self.
Well, he resigns before he can be fired, and he at least admits to Harry that he shouldn't have been teaching. But that's my problem with Remus -- he doesn't act when he knows he should, no matter who gets hurt -- as long as he's okay he just doesn't *care* enough about anyone else to put himself at risk.
He needles Snape and yes, Snape snaps back at him too,
This is going to sound insane, but frankly, I think Snape is more polite and professional than Lupin was. Snape addresses everyone by their proper titles and doesn't try to be familiar with people he isn't actually on intimate terms with while Lupin tends to use given names and omit titles when addressing everyone. Snape is standoffish, but Lupin's behavior is all subtle power-play of addressing other people as friends when they're not actually so, which puts the other person in the position of social inferior or child. It's actually a tactic that Dumbledore uses, and Lupin doesn't have the skills, the age, or the deeds to back up his use of that little trick.
Ultimately [Remus Lupin] really doesn't seem completely fit for teaching despite showing a talent for some aspects of the job.
He's got the ability to connect to students and convey information effectively down, but he can't be trusted to put the kids' safety above his own needs and wants, and his needling Snape in front of Harry indicates that he might be the sort to run down other teachers in front of the students, which is disastrous for school discipline.
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Oh yes, you're right--it is during the Occulemancy lesson. Wouldn't be surprise if James hexed the broom either! Presumably, since either Remus or Sirius says they thought Snape was jealous of James because of Quiddditch he might have been a good player and so a rival.
Well, he resigns before he can be fired, and he at least admits to Harry that he shouldn't have been teaching.
You're right--though I can see why people get a real passive-aggresive vibe from that as well.
This is going to sound insane, but frankly, I think Snape is more polite and professional than Lupin was.
Actually, I think I agree. He gives Harry incredibly mixed-messages about it as well, iirc, telling him not to be disrespectful to Snape while obviously winding him up in front of Harry.
He's got the ability to connect to students and convey information effectively down, but he can't be trusted to put the kids' safety above his own needs and wants, and his needling Snape in front of Harry indicates that he might be the sort to run down other teachers in front of the students, which is disastrous for school discipline.
True--and probably very significant that Snape doesn't do this given that we know he's got real grudges against a lot of teachers. I guess we don't know what Snape is like in private (presumably all the teachers would have openly discussed Lockhart with each other, which is different) but I have a hard time imagining him running down other teachers even in private to a Slytherin, and I can't imagine there are students who feel like they could diss teachers in front of him either. The bounds of professional respect seem to come naturally to him, even if it's sometimes strained when he doesn't respect the individual.
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Lupin says that in the Shrieking Shack, right before Snape takes off the Invisibilty Cloak. To me, it was quite obvious that he was editing himself like mad as he spun the story out for Harry, Ron and Hermione. It wasn't until OotP that I knew why -- Lupin was skittering away from telling Harry that "Snape hates you because your dad was a complete berk, Harry."
He gives Harry incredibly mixed-messages about it as well, iirc,
Frankly, Harry gets mixed messages from most of the teachers, and his godfather too. No wonder I think Harry is morally at sea -- he's never gotten firm rules from anyone in the Wizarding World.
[It is] probably very significant that Snape doesn't do this given that we know he's got real grudges against a lot of teachers.
Well, I'm not sure that Snape does have a lot of grudges against the teachers. Oh, he always goes after the DADA teacher, but no one else on staff has complained of him (and they all turned pretty fiercely on Lockhart and Umbridge). Frankly, since emotional damage doesn't seem to register as damage to most people in the Wizarding World (notice how sharp McGonagall gets when Neville Longbottom has failed again), *Snape* might not even hold a grudge against the teachers who didn't protect or help him when he was a student; he holds the humiliation and physical attacks against James et al., but I don't think he can actually comprehend emotional damage. He hasn't the mental machinery.
The bounds of professional respect seem to come naturally to him, even if it's sometimes strained when he doesn't respect the individual.
Whereas Remus Lupin and Sirius Black don't seem to know about that kind of respect. It makes me wonder what sort of positions they had between leaving school and the disastrous Halloween of 1981; what where they *doing* that they didn't acquire at least a gloss of professional manners?
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It's great, isn't it? And Hagrid too, keeping himself from saying that Snape could possibly have anything against Harry personally in SS/PS. (Though we don't know exactly how Hagrid thinks of their history.)
Frankly, Harry gets mixed messages from most of the teachers, and his godfather too. No wonder I think Harry is morally at sea -- he's never gotten firm rules from anyone in the Wizarding World.
Yes, adults rarely seem to be able to "act like adults." In a way this makes Snape stand out just because he seems to do the correct thing in extreme situations--like, he can't make himself give Harry lessons, but when Sirius may be in danger he acts to protect him. And I didn't think it was out of a real desire to save him so that Sirius would be in his debt or anything either. You can see why Harry doesn't trust adults and, as you say, he's pretty at sea morally. There's no good role-models in his world.
Well, I'm not sure that Snape does have a lot of grudges against the teachers. Oh, he always goes after the DADA teacher, but no one else on staff has complained of him (and they all turned pretty fiercely on Lockhart and Umbridge).
LOL-sorry, I'm laughing because I look at the things I've said here and I think, "What was I saying here?" because you're right, Snape doesn't really have grudges against teacherst. The only people he really seems to have grudges against are the Marauders and I was probably really only thinking of Snape keeping himself in check as far as he does with Lupin. He doesn't hold himself back when it comes to Harry and Neville, obviously, but that's because he does, as you say, seem to be operating on different values than we might. What grudge us readers might think he should have doesn't always correspond to what he does have, just as other teachers don't always see things the way readers might. McGonnogal's reactions to Neville are a good example.
Whereas Remus Lupin and Sirius Black don't seem to know about that kind of respect. It makes me wonder what sort of positions they had between leaving school and the disastrous Halloween of 1981; what where they *doing* that they didn't acquire at least a gloss of professional manners?
You do wonder--was it just all the Order being old mates from school or not insisting on any formality? That's something I do tend to notice is associated with Slytherin in general, actually-that more natural respect for authority even if it's for show. They test authority, obviously, like Malfoy does by suggesting Remus' robes are too shabby for a teacher or asking sarcastic questions in CoMC, but he also seems quite comfortable with formal address and things like that. I remember recently somebody referred to Snape letting him goof off in his class or play dumb jokes, but I've always gotten the impression Malfoy mostly laughs at Snape's jokes in Potions. I just get the feeling if Malfoy was goofing off in class Snape would see it as disrespect and put a stop to it, because nobody goofs off in his class.
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We know he thought there weren't nicer people than the Potters, and that Fred and George could give James and Sirius a run for their money in the
being assholespranking stakes...I just get the feeling if Malfoy was goofing off in class Snape would see it as disrespect and put a stop to it, because nobody goofs off in his class.
He lets him throw pufferfish eyes, and do spirited imitations of Dementors. But then, the rest of the faculty allow Harry to pretty much run riot in class or out (McGonagall suggesting, for example, a weeks detention for assault, but giving detention and taking points for the dementor trick in POA; or Lupin saving him from punishment for the snow-throwing) so perhaps he sees it as evening the score?
That's something I do tend to notice is associated with Slytherin in general, actually-that more natural respect for authority even if it's for show. They test authority, obviously, like Malfoy does by suggesting Remus' robes are too shabby for a teacher or asking sarcastic questions in CoMC, but he also seems quite comfortable with formal address and things like that.
Isn't that the only interaction between Remus and Draco? *digs*
Malfoy gave Lupin an insolent stare, which took in the patches on his robes and his dilapidated suitcase. With a tiny hint of sarcasm in his voice, he said, "Oh, no - er - Professor".
So whereas the Gryffindors would openly 'cheek' a professor if they didn't respect them, Slytherins seem to kind of use their manners against them - I WILL KILL YOU WITH SARCASTIC KINDNESS!11 ;)
Like in OotP, when Draco's taking points. Ron wants to take them from Crabbe and Goyle, and doesn't come up with a reason - presumably there's no need, whereas Draco won't quite disregard the rules completely, but will instead take them for spurious reasons - Muhahaha, a button undone!
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Probably, but also I think he's fine with it because it doesn't disrespect him since it's against Harry by Draco, if that makes sense. I assume Draco isn't not doing his work or irritating Snape himself with his talking, you know? Because Snape himself is also going after Harry in class, so I don't feel like Draco is really running wild, but more that Snape is pleased to be able to go at Harry this way as well. But I still get the feeling he feels in control of Draco and isn't just letting him do what he wants.
Isn't that the only interaction between Remus and Draco? *digs*
The only one I know of, since they're not in DADA together--is it before they've had a class together in fact? Anyway, I was never worried that Lupin would be threatened by him in class. Are we told DADA became everybody's favorite class except the Slytherins? I seem to remember that--but I assumed they were still under control in it.
Like in OotP, when Draco's taking points. Ron wants to take them from Crabbe and Goyle, and doesn't come up with a reason - presumably there's no need, whereas Draco won't quite disregard the rules completely, but will instead take them for spurious reasons - Muhahaha, a button undone!
That sort of thing seems to be considered really really smarmy in this universe, which I guess makes sense given how rule-breaking is sort of a virtue. It's not just that Draco's a little shit, it's that he's the kind of little shit who checks for teachers before he mouths off etc. That might be extra annoying to somebody with a hot temper who considers it demeaning.
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Maybe that's why Draco's usually described as acting alone in Potions, as opposed to accompanied by his 'gang'?
It's not just that Draco's a little shit, it's that he's the kind of little shit who checks for teachers before he mouths off etc. That might be extra annoying to somebody with a hot temper who considers it demeaning.
I think the difference is, Harry and Ron may not be able to keep their cool, even with teachers watching, but they don't have to.
There's no need for them to check for nasty teachers around the corner - I mean, witness the consequences of them losing their tempers in front of any authority figures but Umbridge and Snape; which is to say, there are none or significantly lighter ones.
Dumbledore, for example, or Lupin, or McGonagall 'play by the book' - they maintain an outward facade of reason and fairness, they attempt to follow official procedure, they quote rules and they succeed most of the time (in that they're all fairly popular with staff and students.)
Snape and Draco attempt to 'play by the book' repeatedly, with limited success (their decisions are overruled, reversed; they're fairly unpopular with staff and students.)
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I mean, the kid you worry about isn't the one who kicks his brother under the table, it's the one who does it in front of his parents.
Because Kid A is showing that they understand what they're doing isn't acceptable in the eyes of the world.
They're still doing it, so they still have lots to learn, but they've assimilated the idea that if an adult sees you kicking someone, they'll be angry. It's 'wrong'.
Kid B could just have a very short fuse, but I think I'd be worried, because it's not that they're breaking the rules, it's that they don't see why a negative aggressive action should be concealed; to them, it's not particularly 'wrong'.
I mean, the end of OotP, when Snape's all "Whachoo doing, Potter?" and Harry's all "I'm trying to decide which hex to use on Malfoy."
I can understand how that's a lot more honest, and braver than "Oh shit! Nothing, really!" (not that Gryffindors have never been shown to simply lie about that sort of thing - PoA, for example) but if I was a teacher, the disrespect and...well, pig-headed ignorance would annoy me much worse than weaselling out.
I mean, this scene annoyed me far worse than the one in PoA, because Harry has gone from intellectually understanding "done something wrong, don't want Snape to know and punish me" to not believing or understanding that he's doing anything wrong at all!
I mean, there's all that jazz about Slytherins having a certain 'disregard for the rules' but I think that's something we've been told and not shown.
What we seem to see is Slytherins using the rules against people, which is presented as very cowardly in the HP!verse, sort of hitting below the belt. The rules are generally ignored in the HPverse, and actually following through with them (the Quidditch ban, Buckbeak) is seen as unfair.
Whereas the Gryffindors are much less conscious of rules, to the extent of almost seeming sociopathic - they're mystified as to why there are rules at all!
Their reasoning is extremely broad and limited - why would they want to tell Montague's parents about his cause of illness? They don't like him!
Or the Quidditch teams discussion of the ban, where Angelina's like 'But Crabbe didn't recieve the exact same punishment, this is unfair!' There's no shades of gray, or 'Well, perhaps this deed deserves a different consequence to that one' and they seem to struggle with these concepts - look at Sirius (ah, back on topic finally!)
He doesn't seem to understand why for example, leading someone to a werewolf is wrong. Covering it up doesn't occur to him, because he doesn't see why anyone would be shocked!
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This is actually one of the things that infuriates me about *Lupin*: If Severus Snape can rise above his often normal (appalling) behavior in a crisis to act as the better person he is capable of being, why the HELL can't Remus Lupin manage it?
You can see why Harry doesn't trust adults and, as you say, he's pretty at sea morally. There's no good role-models in his world.
Arguement Number One for Dark Lord Potter. Harry has no idea what the rules are, except for "I'm entitled to do whatever the heck I want, because Dumbledore always rewards me for what I do."
What grudge us readers might think he should have doesn't always correspond to what he does have, just as other teachers don't always see things the way readers might.
Exactly. It's hard to remember, but the morality of the Wizarding World is different. They think depriving Muggles of their memories are a good thing, that it's perfectly reasonable to drop a kid out the window to make his magic manifest, and that not protecting a student from bullies is correct as long as it doesn't turn into physical danger.
I love McGonagall, but even her I sometimes have hard times sympathizing with. She lets Dumbledore override her own ideas a lot -- leaving baby Harry with unsuitable guardian, for one -- and tends to let her emotions run away with her in a crisis. The fact that Snape apparently doesn't hold a grudge against her for his schooldays amazes me at times.
was it just all the Order being old mates from school or not insisting on any formality?
I doubt they were all old mates, as it seems there was quite an age range in the first Order -- Aberforth and Moody would be at least a generation older than James et al., I think. Though I wouldn't put it past JKR to have all but Snape be former Gryffindors (bleagh!).
That's something I do tend to notice is associated with Slytherin in general, actually-that more natural respect for authority even if it's for show.
Slytherins read the rulebook and then use it against you. They are *all* barracks-lawyers, as far as I can tell. It can be a remarkable effective strategy.
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That quoted passage is particularly damning--he was afraid for Dumbledore to know that he misbehaved as a teenager? Because Dumbledore's trust was so important to him. Not important enough to actually honor, but important enough to lie to him years later to cover up for it (thus dishonoring the trust again).
Arguement Number One for Dark Lord Potter. Harry has no idea what the rules are, except for "I'm entitled to do whatever the heck I want, because Dumbledore always rewards me for what I do."
I think that's another reason I sometimes just feel more comfortable with the Slytherins. They all seem to have to suffer the consequences of their own actions and, more importantly, see them as such. As has been pointed out elsewhere, I think, while the fates of MWPP are pretty grim and so could be seen as punishment, it's not generally understood that way.
Though I wouldn't put it past JKR to have all but Snape be former Gryffindors (bleagh!).
Bleagh is right!
Slytherins read the rulebook and then use it against you. They are *all* barracks-lawyers, as far as I can tell. It can be a remarkable effective strategy.
I agree-see, I love this about them. I was thinking of trying to write something on "cunning" in general, and spies in the WW, because it seems like this kind of ability is considered a really terrible thing, but I don't think it's so much worse than other kinds of fighting. I love watching Snape is getting the upper-hand with Umbridge.
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McGonagall does this, also, though, doesn't she?
And in OotP, of course, all the teachers openly disregard Umbridge.
...Probably very significant that Snape doesn't do this given that we know he's got real grudges against a lot of teachers.
Interestingly, as you mention, the only teacher I remember Snape being mildly critical of was Lockhart, and that was the 'Your moment has come' bit, not any actual comments.
The teacher dynamics fascinate me.
I can't see as how any of them are particularly professional, but somehow McGonagall, Dumbledore and Lupin have achieved reputations as scrupulously fair and respectful to others.
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I only remember her saying she doesn't want to deal with Snape if Slytherin wins the Quidditch Cup again -- with distinct overtones that Snape is being insufferable about it -- and running down Umbridge. She said unkind things about Lockhart, but at the time she thought it was teachers only.
Interestingly, as you mention, the only teacher I remember Snape being mildly critical of was Lockhart,
And reminding him of who was the actual Potions master at the school -- but again, was Snape aware that Harry was listening at the time?
but somehow McGonagall, Dumbledore and Lupin have achieved reputations as scrupulously fair and respectful to others.
Dumbledore -- fair? Mr. Let-me-snatch-away-your-rightfully-earned-victory? If the whole of Malfoy's year turns to the Dark Lord, I'd say Dumbledore's little humilation with the House Cup was the start of their distrust in him; that was simply unfair and tacky as hell.
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I think I love you.
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Seriously, this is something that got discussed at Convention Alley -- Harry got *rewarded* for endangering the school. If Harry had just listened to the teachers and not gone after the Stone, Quirrel would have gotten stuck at the Mirror of Erised until Dumbledore came back and collected him. Instead, Dumbledore gives Harry et al. a bunch of points for being brave (and releasing Voldemort!) which cheats Slytherin out of the House Cup.
The real humiliation is that the Great Hall is decorated to celebrate the Slytherin win, and Dumbledore waits until the last damned minute to change the score. If he'd awarded those points the night before, or not had the hall decorated, it would have been one thing, but the way he did it is saying "Slytherin wins! Gotcha! Gryffindor wins!"
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Absolutely--wtf?? It would almost be more palatable if it was a one-shot book, but given all the weight that's given to how evil Slytherin is, and how dangerous, and how bad it is to not see Dumbledore as a favorite twinkly uncle, and how Gryffindor wins every year was it really necessary not only to fix the contest so your favorite child wins but to make a point of humiliating an entire house to do it? Like it wasn't enough they could just lose, they had to get roped into a "surprise" for Harry, whom they already dislike. It's like they don't matter at all. Then the other houses are cheering...why? Because they, too, want to end the year by making sure that group of kids over there knows they're hated?
It's annoying, too, because often people will use as proof that nobody is biased is that Slytherin won for 6 years straight before Harry got there, but to me that just seems like an easy thing the author threw in to make it seem like Gryffindor was the underdog. The entire time we have spent at Hogwarts since the entire time we've been reading the it seems impossible that Slytherin could ever win anything given the way they're always shown as totally lacking in any positive qualities. Has anybody ever really felt suspense about whether or not Slytherin will win a Quidditch match or the house cup?
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And the really annoying thing about Dumbledore is that it's not just a mistake he's made once. It's a mistake he's made repeatedly (James being awarded Head Boy after assaulting other students, Harry's being permitted to do the same) and then makes some sanctimonious speech like 'They made their own choices' about afterwards!
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You know, I was just thinking - I see this brought up a lot as evidence that Remus isn't as responsible as he should be, or in some other way as a bad judgment call on his part, but how do we know that he didn't say anything because he thought Dumbledore already knew? I mean, Dumbledore, whatever one's opinion of him might be, indisputably works the fuck out of that "Dumbledore is omniscient and the wisest person evr omg" reputation. It's Sirius who says it in the Shrieking Shack scene, but the line in PoA about how Peter wasn't about to commit murder under Dumbledore's nose certainly seems to indicate that at least one of the Marauders didn't think that Dumbledore would manage to overlook three unregistered animagi in his very citadel, because what other reason would he have had, if Harry had turned up dead, for thinking the rat did it?
Which really, if you think about it, opens up a headache-inducing set of logical fallacies. But the point is, maybe Remus didn't say anything because he thought Dumbledore already knew.
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But then, that opens up the other question of why it might be important to make it public knowledge. I mean, if everyone is on the lookout for Black surely it would help if they knew he had a shiny coat and a wet nose? Or at least for Harry to know that.
Wait, what am I saying. This is the guy who thought it was better Harry not know that those visions Voldemort was sending were fake and a trap to lure him to the DoM, which is why he needed those lessons with Snape. So why would Dumbledore tell Harry about Sirius just because he knew?
Maybe he thought it was better for Harry not to know Sirius was an animagus because he thought it was more important to protect Harry's boyish love of puppies than tell him how to spot the murderer. Could happen!
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Weren't you moved by his one perfect tear, then?
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"All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me... and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job, when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being and Animagus had nothing to do with it... so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along."
Granted, he could be lying here and he really thought DD knew, but frankly I can't see a reason why he would do so, particularly when it would mean he would be letting himself off the hook, so to speak.
b.
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Remus and Sirius have been beaten down by life and Sirius is really a poster child for wasted opportunity. I'm not a big Sirius fan but I do understand the tragedy of being young, so full of promise and not just have your life taken away like James did, but to have your life taken by rotting in prison for 12 years and than spend the remaining two living on the run. All for something that wasn't your fault.
You point that Snape actually gets his revenge, is a good one and one I hadn't really thought of.
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LOL--Poor Snape never gets enough revenge.:-)
For me there's almost something more painful about the person who "deserves" to fall because they're arrogant or too gifted in the beginning. I guess it almost seems superstitious to me, like they're tempting fate and "asking for it." So that's kind of what I see in Sirius especially.
I think I find a more awkward firewhisky sex-scene more interesting, really--though I haven't read much R/S so for all I know there's wonderful fluff out there. It just seems like that situation uses their whole characters and is more personal and adult. There's all that regret to work with!
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I agree with all your main points here. Your descriptions of Sirius' life then and now are just dead-on, and they were the same reasons that made me reexamine him as a character in OOTP and learn to feel for him. While I sort of think Sirius and Remus 'deserved' what they got (the Severus fan in me felt vindictive), it doesn't change the fact that their lives were just plain sad. Especially for Sirius who no longer has a chance to move on and start over again.
I've always found lovey dovey S/R the epitome of OOC. And with the scenario you've pinpointed above even a 'healthy' kind of hurt/comfort can hardly be done well for this pairing. To me it's more likely just sex with a familiar friend, something to distract themselves with and something to take away the pain by.
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whenif Malfoy gets kicked to the curb in the next two books and his family loses all their money etc., it will be worse for me cause he "deserves it" for being spoiled and nasty about his money. On TV especially they seem to do that to arrogant characters.But still, whether or not you like Sirius and Remus or feel sorry for them it's a sad situation that's full of ugly stuff to think about. Because that could happen to anybody, really. Anybody can wind up having a life you'd never expect for them.
To me it's more likely just sex with a familiar friend, something to distract themselves with and something to take away the pain by.
Yes! Which could be so good in itself! Presumably there is stuff like this out there, but it makes me think about how, for instance, H/D can do fluff or angst but can also be great for this sort of thing, where they're using each other but also need each other.
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And yes, I'm saying most here, not all. Stories such as Yahtzee's "Inhabited By Winter" are the exception that I enjoy.
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Heh. Now I'm wondering if anybody writes any fics where they kill each other instead of fuck!
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maturity and control
If all he's been doing is living on his own he may never have needed to really work on some parts of his personality.
Oh yeah. He was so ready to kill Peter in front of the kids. Sirius is easy, he's almost never restrained. Remus is a different thing... he seems comfortable within the role, the bookish one, the professor, but he allows emotions // wolf? to come out and rule his decisions. Snape seems... I dunno, I've never gotten a handle on him ... Snape is more comfortable with the big picture. He doesn't have to like it. At times he seems more in touch with that big picture than Remus, more *together* even though he flies off the handle about minor things. To me, Remus only approached that after the death, and even then it's Harry's POV so it might've been shock.
Somehow I doubt Snape is too impressed/awed by Dumbledore. Maybe that's just me.
And maybe the Marauders *are* trapped in their high school selves.
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Actually, a lot of the S/R fics -have- been like that-- extremely painful, nearly excruciatingly poignant, with all those wounds unhealed and so little time and so much bitterness between them. Yes. But they're beautiful that way-- and I believe they really love each other (shippiness aside), and that-- to me-- makes the difference. Because yes, they are half-broken (maybe more than half), but they need each other still, even if it doesn't help, even if it only hurts. The barriers may very well be between them, yes, especially since this is Remus we're talking about, but Sirius -knows- him, and that kind of knowledge doesn't go away. They seem to have the kind of bond that's larger than whatever they're currently going through-- they're just welded together through thick and thin, whether they like it or not, whether they're fucking or not, whether they -like- each other anymore or not. Maybe it's not easy-- of course it's not easy-- but Remus can still affect Sirius' behavior (i.e., Sirius defers to him), and they -are- living together not just for expediency, I presume. Even if the fire between them is low and leaves one feeling more damp than warm, the memories remain, and the need remains, even if they cannot fulfill it. That sort of aching need-- that is love, whether or not it -works- or -helps- you or means anything in the long term. That's why I love them; I love their need for each other, not so easily cast aside or forgotten.
Yes, they can -pretend- to hide behind politeness, or at least Remus might try, but Sirius-- he doesn't respond well to politeness or fakery, I don't think. Sirius may not be burning so bright in OoTP, but it does seem like he has some measure of his former rapport with Remus-- they do things in tandem, talk to Harry together, do various small gestures together. They aren't so separate as all that, even if emotionally they're miles apart, still-- but it hasn't been so long, and they haven't had so much -time- yet, and healing does take time. I wouldn't say it had to be hopeless. Remus has been hurt so much, and so has Sirius, and it would have taken a long long time for the trust to come back (and it would never have come back the same, of course), but-- who else do they really have? Eventually, both of them would have had to crack.
Anyway, I'm just talking about the emotions between them, that are bigger than their lives or whatever they have or don't have anymore. I mean, of course that's entirely subjective and up to the reader to see or not see, but. Harry & Draco have nothing to talk about too. Ron and Hermione have precious little to talk about. It's not about that, necessarily-- I think. I think they -could- comfort each other, just their bodies, their familiar faces, their shared history, their need for each other and the way the other -smells-, even, could be enough, if only for a night. They -are- intrinsically very comfortable with each other (to hug so soon after meeting)-- their bodies seem to recognize each other (I don't mean that sexually), after all that feral hunting and running together. They are packmates, literally-- dog and wolf-- and of course they're very loyal, more loyal, perhaps, than even Ron and Harry, having been through so much.
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Meh, I can't really talk about this rationally, since I have Sirius and Remus so... I dunno, -there- in my head (though obviously not as 'there' as Harry & Draco). *sigh* I just think... it's not all James, to Sirius-- it's all -guilt- and -self-recrimination- and regret about James, it's all self-righteous need for revenge and obsession-- but it's not a real, breathing -bond- like what he has with Remus, though James was his best friend, yeah, and he misses him, yeah, but I think Sirius is just too loyal, too-- I dunno-- righteous to be the one to betray (in this case, Remus) without the other person doing something to provoke him. Things are so simple to him, I think. He takes Remus for granted, it seems to me, to a certain extent, and Remus lets him, because he -knows- Sirius, he knows, and he accepts because that's what Remus does. He goes along, he knows James' & Sirius' flaws, and he's okay with that because they're his -friends-, and what else does he have? He's willing/able to go on without them, but he holds on if/when they're there. He understands because he has to, and he deals with reality (accepts reality, too), so... I don't think he -expected- something from Sirius that Sirius didn't/couldn't give him. I don't know if he even let himself hope (which is sad, of course).
I don't know if him thinking Sirius was guilty was the same as him not being faithful. He just accepted, because that's what Remus does-- just as not accepting is what -Sirius- does (didn't accept his failure, really, didn't accept James' death, really, etcetc). Remus never thought of Sirius as bright and wonderful and perfect, too perfect to do something so bad-- because he -knew- that Sirius was a prick, he -knew- that torturing Snape was bad/wrong/morally disgusting. He let it happen, but he didn't think it was -right-. So I don't think it was that huge of a leap for someone so used to being somewhat jaded about his friends to allow that Sirius could very well be guilty. I mean, Sirius lead Snape to him in the Shack-- Remus knew what Sirius could very well be capable of, and then when he was willing to kill Peter with him all those years later, he also knew that when pushed came to shove, he'd do it with him.
As far as Remus-- I think it's likely enough that Sirius admired Remus' quiet sort-of integrity, because they were friends and knew each other and one assumes they didn't get that turned off by central aspects of each other's personalities back in school, either. Remus isn't like him or James, but why would Sirius -need- all his friends to be like him? Sure, there's Harry, but Harry is James' son, and he desperately wanted James back. Remus is/was still Remus-- who sticks by him, who hugs him, who tries to stop him from doing/saying stupid things. He's Sirius' conscience and his friend and he probably doesn't bother showing Remus how much he means to him, because Sirius -is- selfish and kind of obsessed and could probably easily be cruel-- he's a bad friend, I suppose, and a worse boyfriend in OoTP-- but he knows Remus knows him, knows Remus would forgive him.
Yes, OoTP!Sirius was disturbed and defeated and nearly at his worst, and Remus couldn't help him, but I don't think one could lay that at the feet of their relationship being inadequate. Nearly nothing could've helped OoTP!Sirius, really, except maybe time and moving to lie low at Lupin's after all.
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Reena, you know I think all ships are the same under the sun and I sincerely think they all have a value and yes you can fuck one and be best friend with the other. That said, this line above is a bit funny, considering the books. As funny as when people convince themselves that fanon Draco is actually canon Draco and if people write Draco as a bit of a monstrous brat, it's OOC.
The only time Sirius expresses feelings for Remus in canon, it seems to me, is when they meet in POA and are like, oh, wtf, you're my friend who's not dead or evil, waaah, thank God. Then Sirius proceeds to obsess over James, and obsess some more, in detail, being shown, as a youngling, basically indifferent to Remus if James was there.
I know this is going to be taken the wrong way, but I am not really trying to say J/S is the One True Way, though in this specific case it would be actually funny. But the problem is, when people say Sirius cares so much about Remus and Remus is the importantestest person in his life, I just don't feel they're writing the Sirius I read about, you know?
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It is quite creepy, ain't it? Sirius never seems to notice Remus except maybe as an accomplice -- James was his co-conspirator.
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I can easily imagine Sirius and James sharing a cell in prison, with Sirius holding long conversation with the James in his head. He may have both helped him through it and made him feel guilty and worthless.
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The SB/RL shippers have been reading a lot in the short mentions to Remus after Sirius' death. I think we've all been assuming that Remus *would* have felt devastated for losing the last of his school friends *again*, so shortly after getting him back, so shortly after realising there was no reason to hate him and learning that Sirius had suffered years in misery and isolation for a crime he didn't commit. That's why we want badly to read so much in Remus' greying hair and spaced sentences. But when putting those assumptions aside, I look at OotP!Remus and conclude he doesn't care that much. Either Sirius' departure didn't leave him all that alone, or he just doesn't mind being alone. Or maybe Sirius was not that important to him. (Actually, I think OotP!Remus has all the emotional depth of a toaster.)
I don't remember how I thought Remus' reacted to Sirius' death. I doubt no matter what he felt that he would cry or get emotional--he's still an Englishman after all! But I don't remember feeling that much for him either.
We don't really get much sense of what the SB/RL relationship is, do we? I mean, it's interesting to bring up the way they talk to Harry together and get animated there, because that's where they're talking about the past and about James. I think that is one reason I tend to feel it's OOC when people write Marauders-era Sirius/Remus as being best friends of MWPP. To us it seems like they should be that way because as long as we've known them, they've been it. Peter and James don't even exist. But as we saw in OotP, the dynamics when Peter and James were there was quite different. Not so much from Peter, who appeared to just fawn over James, but just James in general seemed to effortlessly dominate everything.
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We never saw them in a 'normal' type situation. It seems like Sirius -was- completely obsessed in mission-mode but frustrated 'cause he could do nothing, and yet-- I mean, there are bits-- in OoTP-- where it seemed like Remus had some sort of controlling power over Sirius to make him 'behave'-- just little things like in terms of mediating between him & Molly or him & Snape or him & Harry. They seem to do things together-- little things like talking to Harry or giving gifts-- and in PoA they moved together and immediately decided to turn on Peter together, etc. They do act like a team, more... I dunno, of a unit than Ron & Harry even. But I'm no canon-whore so I can't really quote or prove.
I don't deny Sirius's best friend is James & he's obsessed with James-- I don't think I've ever denied that; I just... well, I think his dynamic with Remus is different, more complementary. Remus is a balance, not an accomplice. These are different-- not competing-- functions. Rather like Harry, Ron and Hermione, you'd get into awfully thick waters if you tried to really argue who means 'more' to Harry at any one point. He really ignores Ron in OoTP and GoF for different reasons, etc.
So really it is a question of how you see these little clues (as I've said), whether you 'see' certain behaviors in certain ways. I in no way believe Sirius and Remus are 'gay' or 'in love' in canon, but that doesn't matter, I still believe they're very close, and what's more, I think that's how we're -meant- to see them, anyway, so if one doesn't, it's a failure on the writer's part, but the sense of 'this is probably how it should be' remains. For me.
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<3
I also think partly I get off showing the uncanon status of S/R because I feel so completely oppressed by S/R shippers insisting it is. Or not, and I just like the word a lot. *cough* You know I couldn't care less about canon except as a platform, but sometimes people get so rabid about, say, H/D and H/S not making sense especially when you have such a canon couple like S/R because jointgiftOMG! I just think it's funny, considering James and all. Who's oppressed anyway? It just cracks me up, see. This has nothing to do with you or S/R, even.
(Although, to tell you the truth and nothing but the truth, I think the bond between James and Sirius in the Pensieve scene was very breathing too. Then again I find that kind of thing very hot. Bigheaded assholes. <3)
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That is to say, I have had no internet for several weeks and still have none at my home, but wanted to stop by and say a belated happy birthday!
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THANK YOU!!