ROTK:EE

[sistermagpie]

• I'm watching the actor's commentary and the new scenes. One cute little thing is when Elijah is talking about "food acting" and the day Fran asked him for "better acting, less food," he has this moment where he channels Frodo and talks in an English accent. He says something like, "actually, it was in the culvert."



• Saruman's death: I like the way Saruman sets up Theoden's death scene by calling him a lesser son of greater men (or something like that). I also love Theoden's reminding Grima he was once a man of Rohan-men of Rohan RULE!!!



• I definitely see fictualities's point about Saruman saying something about Frodo and that destroying the whole point of the movie. In my mind, though, I think Saruman guessing in a general way about Frodo having been in danger since Gandalf sent him out of the Shire, rather than referring to the secret plan to literally destroy the ring. In canon Saruman is seeking a Halfling that's carrying something of great value, so I think he can refer to Gandalf sending Frodo into danger without knowing his plan.



• Wow. After all these years talking about the Spikey Wheel of Death, here it actually is. I think it works having Grima kill Saruman and get shot when he makes the move. It has echoes of canon, obviously, and the shot of Saruman falling from the tower is kind of beautiful and well, you can't beat it for symbolism, even if the landing is pretty damned unhappy. Also, Gandalf being set on fire was kind of cool.



• The drinking contest is like a Saturday Night Live sketch tucked into the movie. They might have gotten some lighter humor if they stuck with Legolas getting just a little drunk for the first time, but Gimli hardly needs more scenes like this. I do like Eomer looking so hopeful at Legolas, hoping he'll get drunk, but I don't like the scene at all.



• I love Pippin's being distracted from the song he sings with Merry and sharing that look with Gandalf, though I have no idea what it means, exactly. Is it about the Palantir? Billy Boyd is lovely there. Oh, and now that I've listened to the commentary, thank you Billy for explaining it is, indeed, about the Palantir.



• I like Eowyn's dream monologue. It did come across to me like Aragorn was comforting her like a child and she was coming at it from a, uh, different angle, without making a play for him. Plus it's Faramir's.



• Well, now we've finally reached the ultimate Jacksonized Tolkien moment with John Rhys-Davies telling us that dwarves, unlike elves, do not snore and fart in their sleep.


• Elijah sleeps with his eyes open? I guess they're so big his eyelids just can't cover them.



• Billy suggested the Indiana Jones Palantir switch? Ha!



• The word "morbid" sounds ridiculous coming out of Sam's mouth. It makes his stealing of Frodo's line kind of better for me, because at least "the king has got a crown again" is a phrase Sam could use. Telling Frodo he's indulging in morbid thinking is not.



• Also I do at least appreciate Frodo getting to show some knowledge of the world in telling Sam where they are, and making it clear that his line later to Sam about the journey back is Frodo humoring Sam, not Frodo needing to be told by Sam they're not coming back.



• VSD shout-out! Sam gets a scene to tell Gollum he'll kill him if he tries anything.



• I always wondered if the reason Gandalf has Pippin with him when he protects Faramir's men from the Nazgul...is that also why Faramir says it's only been 2 days since he saw Frodo and Sam when it should be more?



• Go Faramir! Wizard's pupil! Would not use the ring if Minas Tirith was in ruins! Knows what would have happened to Boromir! Woo-hoo! I like the addition of Sean Bean too, for making Denethor's madness clear, and just for looking like a perfume ad.



• "I remember Elijah saying he'd come back after a day's work and everything would just be sore: his elbows, his forearms, his fingers and his chest and stuff cause it's all jagged rocks and I thought, I'd love to hold you tight and just make you feel all better." When you hear Dom say things like that you have to wonder what the tinhats think is being censored by the studio.



• Faramir/Pippin scene I love, especially since Faramir talking about slaying dragons reminds me of Frodo telling Bilbo he spent his childhood imagining he was off with Bilbo on one of his adventures. Now I want stories about Faramir as a boy. Basically, I like the way the extra scenes use Boromir as the family member who sort of kept everything together, probably working as a bridge between his father and his brother.



• I like the ghostly hands in the Paths of the Dead. They're pretty.



• Peter Jackson gives himself a death scene. *cheers*



• I have to admit I did think that was a dummy of Elijah in the "Don't go where I can't follow," scene. His staring ability impressed me that much.



• I didn't feel like Eowyn had to be saved by Aragorn when Aragorn killed Gothmog. I mean, she's already fought Gothmog so we know she could usually take it and he has something against her. When he's coming at her she's not just waiting for him but crawling to grab a weapon. Then when Aragorn and Gimli take him down it's just part of their progress across the field; he doesn't see Eowyn, he's just chopping up a guy who's not paying attention. I felt like he just got killed by the battle in general, so Eowyn wasn't saved like a damsel in distress.



• DUDE!! Eomer finding Eowyn on the battlefield was surprisingly intense!!! Karl rocks!!! And good for him telling them he wanted to be by Eowyn's side.



• Houses of Healing. Err...alright. Okay. I mean, all we do really need is the two of them actually meeting each other. The newbie I saw ROTK with wanted to know if they got together just from seeing them stand next to each other. Plus, it's nice to know they'd already had sex in a bathtub and this was "Daisy's" first day.



• I like that Pippin has to really search for Merry for hours.



• Sean must be learning. He apologized for interrupting. And Elijah, of course, speaks up only to claim he constantly interrupts too, although I don't think he does. "If I'm having a thought I figure everybody else wants to know about it too." (((Seanwise)))



• "Super sexy lighting for naked Frodo." Hee.



• Yay for Sean and Frodo both agreeing that my interpretation of the "Sam returning the ring" scene is really better.:D



• Elijah chose that helmet??



• "Hit me, Sam!" Frodo gets to be clever and Sam gets to follow the order very well.


• Sorry Elijah, but JRRT actually did write archetypes and his characters (besides Gollum) were anything but ambiguous. I think he was kind of proud of it, actually.



• Luckily, Elijah redeems himself by getting that the scene where Frodo says the ring is "such a weight to carry. It's such a weight." is "a comment on how heavy the ring is becoming." {{{Elijah}}} I kid Elijah, because he and the gang did play Tolkien's characters as very human, which is what's great in the movie, and it does come from canon, even if there's nothing really ambiguous about the orc overseer.



• Oh, and the Mouth of Sauron is the freakiest thing ever. *applauds that*



• I really wonder why they didn't keep in some version of Frodo's promise to Smeagol that if he tried to take the ring he would wind up in the pit of fire. I mean, "Smeagol lied," is spooky the way it's delivered, but kind of silly since this is not the first time he has attacked Frodo. I can see Frodo desperately reminding him of his promise just to see if it works, but it wouldn't be much of a shock when it didn't. Also, it's not a case of Smeagol lying, I don't think, because in this world an oath is an oath. You can break an oath, but that's not lying, I don't think. Frodo himself says that the ring will hold him to his promise.



• Elijah explains that Frodo gets his last burst of strength from the threat to the ring, but I admit that just makes me wish they'd have Frodo fight Gollum off initially like he does in the book. That, I think, would clear up the confusion.



• I love Sean and Elijah's thoughts on their End of All Things speech. Heh. They both get to be selfish again.



• DUDE!!! Elijah mentioned our Q&A!! About the nod at the end! I now officially feel kinda sorta part of the movies.



• I so love all the actors saying how much they'd love a copy of their pictures.


• Also, I love that it's actually PJ's hand that appears in the frame to signal Sam's return to save Frodo from Shelob.




• I'm glad we've got the Viggo/Billy kiss onscreen.

I don't know how I feel about it vs. the TE. I'll have to watch it straight through to see how I feel about the flow etc. Right now my main feeling is there were some things I liked and some I didn't--kinda like the other EEs and TEs.

Comments

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Many agreements, a few dissents.

I definitely see fictualities's point about Saruman saying something about Frodo and that destroying the whole point of the movie.

Yes, that baffled me. I see your explanation, but it's very confusing: I mean does Saruman even know that Frodo is the hobbit in question, i.e. that the Ring isn't in the hands of one of the hobbits smoking his stash?

Eomer! Yes, the grief was intense, and it was set up by earlier added Eomer--the scene with Eowyn, but also, ITA, the drinking game: for me, also, the point of that was really getting to watch Eomer's face in his natural habitat.

Loved the Mouth of Sauron; best addition. And the look between Gandalf and Pippin was so great I forgot it wasn't in the TE--it just seemed so natural and necessary and canonical. I felt it was about different things for the two characters. I loved Sir Ian on this viewing. I haven't listened to actors yet--I go first for director and writers, so they can 'splain theyselves.

I wasn't as happy with the Faramir additions as others. Yes, technically they added some of his real stuff, but in a context and a way that still felt way off to me--more than ever, in a way. For me, his most Faramir-like scenes (in the film) remain the forbidden pool and Osgiliath, both in the theatrical TT, ironically enough. He is just *so weak* in relation to Denethor in this film. And the dragonslaying seemed like this weak, wishy-washy Faramir and not the "Wizard's pupil," to me. Where is the characterization to back up that assertion of Denethor's? I am a little obsessed with the way the films have portrayed the Tolkien-Sue and his family.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm still not sure how I feel about our little Tolkien-Sue either.:-) You don't want to go too far in the direction of Faramir being the black sheep of the family, like he grew up feeling unloved, because it makes it seem like he's like Prince Herbert in Swamp Castle in Monty Python in the Holy Grail or something. He just wants to be a choreagrapher and Dad wants a soldier or something.

I may wind up really thinking Farmir did better in the TEs. It's not perfect, but the additions of the EEs sometimes fuss with him without really improving him. I was really pleased with newbies I talked to after ROTK by the way they seemed to see a lot of the best things from Canon!Faramir even with the changes, so I'm thinking maybe the best things the movies do with him is leave him alone as much as possible and just let him be.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Prince Herbert in Swamp Castle in Monty Python in the Holy Grail or something

Ahaha! But this is Sam--I think he has a line at Parth Galen about how he just wants to SING!

additions of the EEs sometimes fuss with him without really improving him

Yes, I tend to think so, though I'll take it all thanks. Once they had committed to certain choices with him (for me, it really boils down to having "a chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality" not be ironic), adding more lines from the book couldn't make his character more coherent.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

>DUDE!!! Elijah mentioned our Q&A!! About the nod at the end! I now officially feel kinda sorta part of the movies.

Can you provide the link to your Q&A? I'm curious now.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh sorry, I don't have one. This was a Q&A at Lincoln Center in NYC. They showed all three movies and then at the end Elijah, Sean Astin, Andy Serkis and Bernard Hill came out (and also Peter Jackson via satellite later). They took questions from the audience and somebody asked him what Frodo's little nod meant at the end of the movie. Elijah couldn't remember. Sean Astin said, "Whatever you and your friends decided, you were right."

Then Elijah said Frodo was nodding because he was saying they were going to be okay without him.

[sleeplessmarea.livejournal.com]

Nice of Elijah to attempt to get that nod explained. At "our" Q&A he seemed to (quite honestly I thought) beg off of any explanation of that little gesture because it had been SO long since he had put it on the screen. I guess it is part of being an actor that specific motivations like that aren't retained in the memory after a project is over (otherwise - I can only imagine - you would never have room in your brain for your NEXT part).

Apparently not being able to answer his fan must havenagged at him enought that he came up with SOMETHING for the DVD. Always aiming to please, our boy!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Well, what's nice is he says he couldn't answer at the time and he seemed to be suggesting that he still watched the scene and liked the nod but couldn't honestly say what he was thinking at the time.

Btw, I don't know if you've watched the extras yet, but the real story behind that scene is the poor things had to shoot the Grey Havens 3 times, much to their horror, because it was so draining it was the last scene they ever wanted to do again. The first time Sean forgot to put his waistcoat on after lunch so screwed up the continuity. The next day they filmed it all again and it was all out of focus.

[sleeplessmarea.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine getting your psyche worked up enough to cry and cry and act miserable and grief stricken... over and over and over...

Even IF giving your performance doesn't actually require you call up the pain of those intense emotions (tho I'm not sure you can just wall yourself off THAT much and still act convincingly!)... well in any case it just can't be easy!

Three times huh? Must have been so hard for the poor guys...

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

AHH SISTER M ARE YOU ONLINE AND AVAILABLE? IF SO DO PLEASE ANSWER.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, now this message just breaks my heart! Lunch tomorrow...? Yes? Yes??

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

Am finally getting to comment on this! :D

I do like Eomer looking so hopeful at Legolas, hoping he'll get drunk

Hahaha, yes. Will not comment on how slashy it looked. ;)

I like the addition of Sean Bean too, for making Denethor's madness clear, and just for looking like a perfume ad.

Sean Bean = one of LotR's underested sexboys. The room sort of lits when he comes onscreen in that scene.

When you hear Dom say things like that you have to wonder what the tinhats think is being censored by the studio.

Obviously the word "shit". :D But not Dom's outrageously gay admissions of love. Dom is the only straight (?) man who can say things like that in the heart of mainstream.

Now I want stories about Faramir as a boy. Basically, I like the way the extra scenes use Boromir as the family member who sort of kept everything together, probably working as a bridge between his father and his brother.

Faramir on the whole was much much MUCH better in the EE. Have seriosuly felt for him this time. Love Daisy's kind eyes.

I like the ghostly hands in the Paths of the Dead. They're pretty.

Am not ashamed (kinda) to admit Gimli was very funny there and Legolas was appropriately vaguely elvish too.

Peter Jackson gives himself a death scene. *cheers*

Hahahaha! And all of the heads of departments in cameos too! :D Loved that Legolas killed PJ. Ironically funny, in the sense of Legolas' teenaged-pin-up-pantheon status being almost entirely PJ's fault. :) And Orlando's looks. ;)

I have to admit I did think that was a dummy of Elijah in the "Don't go where I can't follow," scene. His staring ability impressed me that much.

Gah! I was thinking "oh my god that's GOTTA hurt, keeping them opened for that amount of time"

DUDE!! Eomer finding Eowyn on the battlefield was surprisingly intense!!! Karl rocks!!! And good for him telling them he wanted to be by Eowyn's side

Oh Eomer. He had my heart in that scene. So heartbreaking. How could they omit that in the TE?

Elijah chose that helmet??

And got appropriately laughed at during the whole time he had to shoot with it. ;D

Oh, and the Mouth of Sauron is the freakiest thing ever. *applauds that*

My god, who (except Steven Tyler perhaps) has that a big mouth? Was it CGed? And even more freakish was the sarcastic parody that character did on the role of the perfect host, including the horrifying smiles.

Elijah mentioned our Q&A!!

What Q&A?

I'm glad we've got the Viggo/Billy kiss onscreen.

Heehee! And even better is Billy's admission that he saw stars during. :DDD Love Dom's stunned's face, and his amused jealousy during his "Billy kissed 5 MALE FELLOWSHIP MEMBERS" comment. ;D (Viggo, Elijah, Orlando, Dom and Ian? :D) Loved seeing Viggo in his Aragorn costume snogging Billy. Twas dirty in a very good way. >:D

Also loved the Harker the stunt team did for Viggo when he finished filming. Was trying to find that woman among that. That cute NZ woman they interviewd in the TTT EE appendix. :)

Was also happy to find Ian in the commentary cast again, and also having Orlando regaining something of his early fangirlness. Bernard Hill is one funny man. :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm amazed they cut out Eomer's finding Eowyn--I thought that whole scene worked better when you knew Pippin was looking for Merry for hours and we got to see Eomer seeing how Eowyn went along and fought etc.


My god, who (except Steven Tyler perhaps) has that a big mouth? Was it CGed?

Yes! On something--maybe a commentary--PJ explains that they started by just making a helmet that featured the mouth but it didn't look interesting enough, so what they did was just take the person's mouth and enlarge it 50%. It's bizarre because it doesn't look fake and you can't immediately tell it's too big to be natural.

What Q&A?

Last year, in January, at Lincoln Center they did a showing of all 3 movies with a Q&A with some of the actors, and the next day they did a little retrospective on PJ where he spoke via satellite and the actors came back too (they weren't supposed to be there but when PJ wound up having to stay in NZ and do it via satellite they came to make up for it!). It was Eiljah, Sean Astin, Bernard Hill and Andy Serkis. Somebody asked Elijah what his smile and nod at the end of the movie meant to him and he had to think about it. On the commentary he says something about it like, "In one of those Q&A's somebody asked about that..." It's the closest I will ever come to being in the movies, I figure.:-)]

Heh--I loved Billy's comment about falling in love with Viggo for a few minutes there!

[(Anonymous)]

" I always wondered if the reason Gandalf has Pippin with him when he protects Faramir's men from the Nazgul...is that also why Faramir says it's only been 2 days since he saw Frodo and Sam when it should be more?"

According to the director's commentary that scene was filmed thinking they wanted Gandalf and Pippin to come straight from Rohan and to the rescue, and that's why Pippin is there. Then they made the "riding through the city" shots that establish the geography of Minas Tirith and wanted to introduce the city (and Denethor?) before Faramir comes back. I'm not sure about the two days, I suppose they way they let Faramir bring Frodo and Sam to Osgilliath made their separation time less than in the books, but as little as two days?
Anyhow, it's in the commentary, over the scene where Gandalf and Pippin ride out. :)

- Clara

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I remember at the time the movie came out everybody was making a point about it being strange Faramir says it's only been two days since Faramir met the other hobbits. If Gandalf and Pippin are supposed to have just arrived in Minas Tirith does that make that timeline more believable? I have no proper sense of time!

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, me neither, I have sort of just decided to roll with it, and accept the timelines as presented to me, but then that's how I am with the books too. I'm sure there are those out there who have made time maps and remember where everybody is a all times, but I don't think I have ever looked beyond the pov of each chapter, and when there's a hint of what the others have been up to I've thought "ah..." and promptly forgot about it.

I guess I'm kind of lazy... but then I've always just read it (again and again and again) and never really gone to the meta place of thinking, possibly because I have no real quarrels with the text. I got a bit inspired to read fics after the movies, but realised very quickly that those I read either explored themes I didn't care about, or thought resolved in the books, or they had fake archaic language that made me cringe, often compared with modern psychobabble and weird elvish.

As for the two days, I'm not sure. It makes sense for Faramir to have spent two days fighting for Osgilliath and returning to Minas Tirith after he sent Frodo and Sam through the sewers, I think, but as to how that compares with Gandalf and Pippin? Just trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt... Didn't Frodo and Sam leave Osgilliath during the TT and the last day of the battle of Helm's Deep? And the ride from Edoras to MT is, what, three days? And Gandalf spend at least one day after Helm's Deep to go to Isengard, and then another in Edoras at the party, so that's ...five days? Which *should* mean that Frodo and Sam leaving Faramir really happens while Gandalf and Pippin is riding towards them. (It's hurting, it's hurting, help!) But then again, is there a whole day in Minas Tirith before Faramir arrives? What with the beacons and all that, making it six days? Or is that all in the same day?

Anyhow, it doesn't seem to match up either way, if we're supposed to rely on the "movie chronology" of having intercut scenes happen at the same time. :-)

- Clara

[(Anonymous)]

I had another look at the movie, and actually, it does make a difference. As the timeline (in the EE) is, there are three days in which Gollum, Sam and Frodo are on their own again; first, there's the night in which Sam overhears Gollum talking to himself, second, there's the night in that weirdly shaped cave, and third, the night at Minas Morgul with that great big light thing (what *is* that?).
But if Gandalf and Pippin hadn't stayed in Minas Tirith for that one night, yes, Faramir's line would have made more sense. It still doesn't match the other storylines, though. :-)

- Clara